The GB 1840 'Penny Black' stamp - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by **GlenStephens** » 15 Jul 2021 17:24

.
Can any of our experts take a stab at the plate number of this guy please?

Appears to have part of that white flaw after O?

Thanks in advance.

GB1840 · Post by **GB1840** » 16 Jul 2021 00:22

Pretty sure this is from plate 10, the red MX cancellation is very scarce on this plate.

Post by **admin** » 16 Jul 2021 00:58

.
Thanks for that .. sure hope you are correct re Plate #10 .. I have to fluke a decent plate once in a blue moon!

Yes, saw Red MX on those are 1500 quid for nice copies in SG, so they can't be common, that is for sure.

Glen

GB1840 · Post by **GB1840** » 16 Jul 2021 01:10

Yes agree, so worth getting a second opinion I think to be sure.

Plate 7 is the only other candidate and is close, but to me isn't quite right.

emason · Post by **emason** » 16 Jul 2021 03:41

GB1840 wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021 01:10 Yes agree, so worth getting a second opinion I think to be sure.

Plate 7 is the only other candidate and is close, but to me isn't quite right.

Yes, I agree - plate 10.

The right hand 'F' is too central and too upright to be plate 7. Also the 'O' flaw is too well developed.

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 16 Jul 2021 11:47

.
Many thanks to Bill as well. Well it looks like I got a scarcer one there.

Have loaded to my page.

Glen

pertinax · Post by **pertinax** » 16 Jul 2021 19:26

Sorry guys but it's plate 4.

Pretty much the first thing I notice with this stamp is the weak and ill-defined upper left edge of the design.

This is generally not a characteristic of plate 10, it's seen on earlier plates.

Scott

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 16 Jul 2021 19:50

.
Bummer ... so that ''O Flaw'' blob occurs on Plate 4 as well? Glen

pertinax · Post by **pertinax** » 16 Jul 2021 19:57

Global Administrator wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021 19:50 .
Bummer ... so that ''O Flaw'' blob occurs on Plate 4 as well? Glen

Sorry I should have added: what looks like part of an O-flaw on this stamp, I think is really a small area of dry print that is not uncommonly seen around the letters of ONE PENNY or TWO PENCE.

S

Rigs · Post by **Rigs** » 16 Jul 2021 20:01

pertinax wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021 19:57
Global Administrator wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021 19:50 .
Bummer ... so that ''O Flaw'' blob occurs on Plate 4 as well? Glen
Sorry I should have added: what looks like part of an O-flaw on this stamp, I think is really a small area of dry print that is not uncommonly seen around the letters of ONE PENNY or TWO PENCE.

Apologies - may I ask what ‘dry print’ means?

pertinax · Post by **pertinax** » 16 Jul 2021 20:28

Rigs wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021 20:01
Apologies - may I ask what ‘dry print’ means?

In GB LE issues dry print is an area that is unprinted when it should be printed, assumed caused by either too much ink being wiped away from the plate, or from the ink slightly receding due to its viscosity.

Here is an extreme example on a 2d blue, at the end of POSTAGE at the top:

Scott

Rigs · Post by **Rigs** » 16 Jul 2021 20:38

pertinax wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021 20:28
Rigs wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021 20:01
Apologies - may I ask what ‘dry print’ means?
In GB LE issues dry print is an area that is unprinted when it should be printed, assumed caused by either too much ink being wiped away from the plate, or from the ink slightly receding due to its viscosity.

Here is an extreme example on a 2d blue, at the end of POSTAGE at the top:

Scott

No worries.

Thanks for supplying that example.

My understanding prior to this was ‘dry print’ being about the paper.

I.e. wet print being about the image applied to dampened paper, and dry print applied to dry.

Also, I find it a little peculiar in your example how the dry print area is so well defined as a rectangle?

pertinax · Post by **pertinax** » 16 Jul 2021 20:59

Rigs wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021 20:38
pertinax wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021 20:28
Rigs wrote: ↑16 Jul 2021 20:01
Apologies - may I ask what ‘dry print’ means?
In GB LE issues dry print is an area that is unprinted when it should be printed, assumed caused by either too much ink being wiped away from the plate, or from the ink slightly receding due to its viscosity.

Here is an extreme example on a 2d blue, at the end of POSTAGE at the top:

Scott
No worries.

Thanks for supplying that example.

My understanding prior to this was ‘dry print’ being about the paper.

I.e. wet print being about the image applied to dampened paper, and dry print applied to dry.

Also, I find it a little peculiar in your example how the dry print area is so well defined as a rectangle?

Rigs, I put 'in GB LE' in my comment because I'm aware this term might mean something else in other philatelic areas.

Scott

a_taylor15 · Post by **a_taylor15** » 17 Jul 2021 19:57

Good morning Members,

I am a new member to this forum. I started reading about the ‘Black Penny’ last week, and thought it would be brilliant to own a part of British Stamp History.

I’ve never owned stamps before, however, I decided to purchase two ‘Black Penny’ stamps on impulse.

I understand experts in the field can identify the ‘plate’ of a particular stamp. I was therefore wondering if anyone could help identify the ‘plates’?

I appreciate the value of stamps depends on the timing, grading and demand.

Nevertheless, I was wondering if someone could let me know if I paid in excess of the current market value for the stamps online (just curiosity, as looking forward to holding onto them).

Stamp (SI) - £155
Stamp (TK) - £123

Thank you in advance for any information or advice, greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Adam

.

.

.

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 17 Jul 2021 20:02

.

Your FIRST post must be in ''Roll Call'' please. Welcome to stamp collecting.

I'll leave the plate numbers to others, but the TK appears to have extensive thinning, (and heavy bleaching too from that scan?) in which case 123 quid seems wildly excessive to me.

Thins and tears etc greatly affect value on these oldies.

Admin

a_taylor15 · Post by **a_taylor15** » 17 Jul 2021 21:47

Thanks Admin,
I have posted on the Roll Call, apologies.
Thanks for your comments on TK.

emason · Post by **emason** » 18 Jul 2021 05:00

a_taylor15 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2021 19:57 I was therefore wondering if anyone could help identify the ‘plates’?

I think 'S-I' is from plate 1b, and 'S-K' is from plate 5.

GB 789 · Post by **GB 789** » 18 Jul 2021 05:20

a_taylor15 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2021 19:57 Good morning Members,

I am a new member to this forum. I started reading about the ‘Black Penny’ last week, and thought it would be brilliant to own a part of British Stamp History.

I’ve never owned stamps before, however, I decided to purchase two ‘Black Penny’ stamps on impulse.

I understand experts in the field can identify the ‘plate’ of a particular stamp. I was therefore wondering if anyone could help identify the ‘plates’?

I appreciate the value of stamps depends on the timing, grading and demand.

Nevertheless, I was wondering if someone could let me know if I paid in excess of the current market value for the stamps online (just curiosity, as looking forward to holding onto them).

Stamp (SI) - £155
Stamp (TK) - £123

Thank you in advance for any information or advice, greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Adam

...

Maybe you did overpay a bit for these, for the commonest plates a decent 4 margin example should cost about £80-120 so you aren’t far away from those prices. Also, what better stamps to get for your first stamps in your collection. If it sets you up on a lifetime of fun in philately then I’d say this is money very well spent.

I would recommend trying to get a 1d black on cover too as it would go well with these two examples on the front page of your collection. You will easily be able to get a decent example for less than £150 (there are loads to purchase on eBay for example). These covers will also increase in value significantly more than just the stamps by themselves.

a_taylor15 · Post by **a_taylor15** » 19 Jul 2021 01:12

Thanks everyone for your comments, really appreciate your expertise.

I was wondering if anyone else could let me know their thoughts on the plating of the stamps?

Thanks, Adam

GB1840 · Post by **GB1840** » 19 Jul 2021 01:52

Adam

Bill had responded with these as being TK plate 5 and SI plate 1b, and I would agree.

regards

Kevin

a_taylor15 · Post by **a_taylor15** » 19 Jul 2021 23:54

Many thanks Bill and Kevin for your help!

Darklord · Post by **Darklord** » 05 Aug 2021 17:22

Hi,

I am new on this forum and I am curious to learn more about Penny Blacks.
I have a Penny Black stamp and could not figure out the plate number.
Please help.

Thanks!

GB1840 · Post by **GB1840** » 06 Aug 2021 00:35

Plate 7 I believe.

Darklord · Post by **Darklord** » 06 Aug 2021 00:58

GB1840 wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 00:35 Plate 7 I believe.

Thank you ! any idea about its catalogue number ?

GB1840 · Post by **GB1840** » 06 Aug 2021 02:33

This would be AS46 in the new QV specialised SG catalogue which is what I use.

Regards

Kevin

Darklord · Post by **Darklord** » 06 Aug 2021 04:34

GB1840 wrote: ↑06 Aug 2021 02:33 This would be AS46 in the new QV specialised SG catalogue which is what I use.

Regards

Kevin

Thanks! I checked the internet, AS46 corresponds to SG-2!

Markfr1 · Post by **Markfr1** » 13 Aug 2021 07:31

Hi, just bought the following three stamps. One 1d red and two 1d blacks. The two penny blacks where sold as TI is plate 4 and HI is plate 1b. Just hoping some kind person can confirm the plate numbers and plate the penny red DL please

Thanks in advance

Mark

pertinax · Post by **pertinax** » 13 Aug 2021 23:20

Markfr1 wrote: ↑13 Aug 2021 07:31 Hi, just bought the following three stamps. One 1d red and two 1d blacks. The two penny blacks where sold as TI is plate 4 and HI is plate 1b. Just hoping some kind person can confirm the plate numbers and plate the penny red DL please

Mark

The 1d blacks are correctly plated.

The 1d red is from plate 40.

Scott

Markfr1 · Post by **Markfr1** » 13 Aug 2021 23:23

Thanks Scott, the information is very much appreciated

Mark

Derbyboi2 · Post by **Derbyboi2** » 21 Aug 2021 22:52

Can one of our experts confirm this is plate 11. This is the best scan I have.

pertinax · Post by **pertinax** » 21 Aug 2021 22:59

Derbyboi2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2021 22:52

Can one of our experts confirm this is plate 11. This is the best scan I have.

Plate 11 appears to be right for it.

I could be certain if a crisp image was provided.

Scott

Derbyboi2 · Post by **Derbyboi2** » 21 Aug 2021 23:48

.
Thanks.

I am looking at 1a-11 set with full margins with both red and black Maltese crosses which are part of what looks to be an excellent GB collection. It also has the 1/2d line engraved complete in mint singles to plate 20 (which is a pair) and includes 9.

There are also some cracking mint 1d, 2d and 1 1/2d mint strips and pairs with plates and shades. All plates of the 6d 10d and 1/- embossed are represented all cut square with about 90% -100% margins.

Both £1 brown lilacs a £5 etc etc with about 20 cape triangles and other Commonwealth. It is said to have been untouched for 40/50 years.

I will try and get a High Res scan of all the 1d Blacks and 1840 2d blues,

Derbyboi2 · Post by **Derbyboi2** » 21 Aug 2021 23:59

Here is a better scan of what is said to be plate 1a. This is typical of the quality.

pertinax · Post by **pertinax** » 22 Aug 2021 00:20

Are you saying there's a 1d black set 1a to 11 cancelled in black, and another set cancelled in red?

I assume you realise a plate 11 1d black cancelled with red MX previously had a SG of £40,000?

It's probably gone down a bit in the latest specialised, but I don't have one with me atm.

Scott

Derbyboi2 · Post by **Derbyboi2** » 22 Aug 2021 00:35

Sorry Scott

To make it clear the set is mainly cancelled in red MX only Plate 11 is in Black. My error for not being specific.

Madrick · Post by **Madrick** » 07 Sep 2021 07:17

Hello,
I would like to know more about this Penny Black please.

Many thanks
Rick
New Zealand

emason · Post by **emason** » 07 Sep 2021 07:35

Looks like plate 4 to me.

Madrick · Post by **Madrick** » 07 Sep 2021 09:21

Thank you, much appreciated

Wentworth · Post by **Wentworth** » 12 Sep 2021 22:05

Hello, I was wondering about the plate of my penny black ‘G-B’ with a smudged red/pinkish Maltese cross? The bottom edge ‘one penny & B’ seem to be quite blurry, is this a printing error or something worse?!
Many thanks for any suggestions

emason · Post by **emason** » 12 Sep 2021 22:54

Your 1d black 'G-B' looks like plate 1a to me.
The stamp has 'basal shift' which means the bottom frame line is slightly 'doubled' and is common to all 'G-B' stamps from this plate. This occurs during plate manufacture and is not an error.

Wentworth · Post by **Wentworth** » 13 Sep 2021 00:03

emason wrote: ↑12 Sep 2021 22:54 Your 1d black 'G-B' looks like plate 1a to me

Thank you very much Bill for identifying both the plate number and the basal shift. Cheers!

ldpower101 · Post by **ldpower101** » 25 Sep 2021 16:27

hi everyone.Trying to work out how to plate these

-the O flaw seems to be present on the AF example which will narrow it down but my eyes are not good enough to pick up any other signs i should be looking for.Also attached a nice 1d on cover[attachment=0]Scan_20210622 (8)-

ViccyVFU · Post by **ViccyVFU** » 26 Sep 2021 00:57

ldpower101 wrote: ↑25 Sep 2021 16:27 hi everyone.Trying to work out how to plate these -the O flaw seems to be present on the AF example which will narrow it down but my eyes are not good enough to pick up any other signs i should be looking for.Also attached a nice 1d on cover[attachment=0]Scan_20210622 (8)-

SE plate 02
Vertical guideline to top right box, plus guideline entire length of top of stamp.
S high and dot in frame

AF plate 09
Vertical guideline top right box (which narrows it to about 6 of the 12 possibles in position AF

)
A to left of middle, F to left of middle
Bottom frame line extends to right.

(There's more, but that should be enough!!)

ldpower101 · Post by **ldpower101** » 26 Sep 2021 06:58

thankyou,you have better eyesite than me for sure.Still looking for the guidelines you mention.Much appreciated

ViccyVFU · Post by **ViccyVFU** » 26 Sep 2021 07:21

ldpower101 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2021 06:58 thankyou,you have better eyesite than me for sure. Still looking for the guidelines you mention.Much appreciated

SE plate 02 (clearer to see on red, plate 02)

AF plate 09

ldpower101 · Post by **ldpower101** » 26 Sep 2021 08:24

awesome

GB1840 · Post by **GB1840** » 26 Sep 2021 18:50

AF plate 9 is interesting as this lettering is one of a few only that was subject to the late provisional repair of early 1841, and can be found in black in state 2 where the 'O' flaw was obliterated, this occurred only in a few days printing when an emergency supply in black ink was needed, after the decision to change to red ink, and a plate repair took place just before this final printing in black. Your stamp is of course state 1. It is very scarce in the repaired state.

emason · Post by **emason** » 26 Sep 2021 20:43

ldpower101 wrote: ↑25 Sep 2021 16:27 hi everyone.Trying to work out how to plate these-
the O flaw seems to be present on the AF example which will narrow it down but my eyes are not good enough to pick up any other signs i should be looking for.

Hello Idpower,
You might find this information on plating useful to you:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=77688

Rog · Post by **Rog** » 27 Sep 2021 02:15

Derbyboi2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2021 23:59 Here is a better scan of what is said to be plate 1a. This is typical of the quality.

Is this a grey-black?

Some time ago someone posted an image with intense black, black and grey-black side by side, but I cannot find it again.

emason · Post by **emason** » 27 Sep 2021 02:31

Rog wrote: ↑27 Sep 2021 02:15 Some time ago someone posted an image with intense black, black and grey-black side by side, but I cannot find it again.

Do you mean this?

From here:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=55930