STAMPBOARDS - Postage Stamp Chat Board and Stamp Forum

As I'm based in Hong Kong and attend most of the major auctions here, I see a lot first-hand of what's happening in the collecting area everyone is talking about -- stamps of China.

In this thread I'll add updates of the prices realized for sales as they happen through the year, giving the PR for the 'key' items that might serve as a benchmark/barometer of the market.

As usual, the first major auction of the year was Spink's once-a-year offering of stamps/banknotes/coins/stock certificates.

I've always found their sales a bit 'thin', they don't have a great variety or quantity of material, and often pieces are a bit lacklustre. This year's sale was better (especially the special Mongolia sale of course), but still they don't have copies of all the 'key' sets and M/S of the Cultural Revolution through 1970s that other auction houses here regularly offer.

Their catalogue itself is testament to 'thin', with 632 lots on 133 pages. Compare that to the upcoming Zurich Asia sale, the catalogue for which I got on the weekend, which is 2162 lots over 2 days, in a 383 page catalogue.

So, on to the results.

The Mongolia has been discussed in depth on pg 2 of this thread:
http://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=24755
(note to readers: please don't start collecting Mongolia, I am up against enough bidders already ).

Note that prices given are in HKD (divide by 7.8 for USD) and they are hammer prices. Buyer's premium is extra 20% on the first $35,000, and 17% thereafter.

Shanghai municipal post pieces made double their estimate or more on most lots. For example lot 2003, est. $8-10,000; hammer $16,000. Lot 2004, a complete sheet, est. $150-200,000, made $310,000.

The Large Dragons were solidly 2.5-3x estimate. Lot 2033, est. $7-9,000, made $20,000. Lot 2043, est. $3-4,000 again was hammered at $8,000.

Small Dragons, Dowagers, New Currency surcharges also performed well (but few pieces).

Red Revenues sold within estimates with some better results. Lot 2081, est. $30-40,000 made $32,000. 2093 at $15-20,000 went for $20,000. The 1c on 3c was a consistent $3,000 per.

1912 Commemorating the Revolution & Republic (2 sets in 1 lot): 2 lots each at $16,000.

A nice piece was 2192, the NW Scientific Exp. in inscription blocks of 6. Est. $6-8,000; hammer $23,000. Zurich Asia has a similar lot next month (except these were top margin and their's are bottom margin).

1961 Table Tennis. 2 copies, one est. $6-8,000 made $8,000. The other est. $8-10,000 made $11,000. This is interesting, it shows that Chinese buyers might be learning about condition. The higher-priced was described as 'fine', while other had 'trivial bends in upper corners'.

Mei Lan Fang, imperf sets of 8 made $65,000, $40,000 and $58,000. The first had 'some' with margins (sheet margins) and only 'a couple of small blemishes'; the second 'a couple of light age marks'; the third 'most with margins and some showing ageing or gum disturbance'.

Mei Lan Fang M/S, an 'exceptional' copy UM at $160,000 (est. $120-140,000) and a hinged copy with 'light ageing, nevertheless a good example' at $110,000 (est. $60-80,000).

1964 Peonies M/S at $29,000 and $23,000 (the lesser with 'couple faint corner bends'), both est. at $20-25,000.

1967 Thoughts of Mao set of 11 (strips complete) UM, est. $12-15,000 made $25,000.

1968 Instructions from Mao strip of 5 (folded) UM est. $20-25,000 made $45,000.

1979 Study Science M/S est. $10-12,000 made $18,000.

1980 Monkey $9,500 on est. of $5-6,000. Another copy in a stockbook with other period issues made $10,000 on est. of $7-8,000, so truly most of the value in that era is that stamp.

2 things that were interesting to note were the failure of 'star lots' to sell, and the high prices that mixed lots realized.

Top lots that were passed:
- Earliest cover with Shanghai stamps, est. $1.5-1.8 million
- The 'Emerald Lady', est. $1-1.5 million
- 3c Red Revenue without overprint, est. $750-850,000
- 1949 Unissued Flying Geese without value, est. $1-1.2 million
- 1953 Tian An Men high-value franking on 'cover' (actually a bag), est. $750,000-1 million

On the other hand, some good results
- Large dragon/HK combination cover est. $1.2-1.5 million made $3.1 million
- HK incoming mail from Belgium, est. $60-80,000 made $700,000

Then there was the unique 96ct olive-bistre block of 4. The estimate was $8-12 million, and I heard that the reserve on it was the low estimate. When it came time for the lot, there was silence in the room, no action for it...finally a phone bidder offered $5.5 million, it was accepted, and that was that.

A single of the stamp made $550,000 on a $500-600,000 estimate. ZurichAsia also has a copy coming up.

Coming back to collections/accumulations ('ranges' as the Brits tend to term them), they generally made 3x-10x estimate. Extraordinary was lot 2150, est. $2,500-3,500 that went for $85,000.

I've noticed in sales in the past, and conducted by different firms, that this is typical. Maybe they 'low-ball' the estimates to attract bidders, or the lotters only gave the collections a cursory look and missed good things...but these huge differences between est. and realization on collection lots happens all the time.

Thank you for your very informative post. I am amazed the number of stamp auction houses in Hong Kong. And more and more of them are openning up.

It is interested to see that even Michael Rogers are not selling much of the PRC/China stuff in their own auctions. China stamp market is in a red hot phase right now. It just hard to say when it will cool down.

The last peak for China market was in 1997. So it has been a few years.

Like a wise man taught me. Sell the stuff when everyone wants it and buy it when no one wanted it. I still yet had to follow his advise. At least I am not buying now.

wlin98004 wrote:
I am amazed the number of stamp auction houses in Hong Kong. And more and more of them are opening up.

David Feldman (Switzerland) just announced yesterday he is opening a HK office.

admin wrote:

wlin98004 wrote:I am amazed the number of stamp auction houses in Hong Kong. And more and more of them are opening up.

David Feldman (Switzerland) just announced yesterday he is opening a HK office.

I also saw that in Feldman's latest newsletter. The office will open in March, with first sale scheduled for May IIRC.

Interestingly, the head of their HK office will be Sam Chiu. He was just hired about a year ago to take over at John Bull after their friendly former director was unceremoniously dumped (I say this because there was no mention made about him leaving, whereas there was a spread in a sale catalogue itself announcing Sam's joining, so the replacement was likely not due to retirement or death).

In a recent issue of Linn's, Daniel F. Kelleher ("America's oldest philatelic auctioneer") announced they would be opening an office here, under the name China Dynasty, with a sale in March IIRC.

Also, Regency-Superior ("Official auctioneer for 5 APS Stampshows") told me they'll be opening an office in HK sometime this year. Probably a representative office only, we'll see.

Finally, ZurichAsia announced in their last sale (September) that this year they plan to increase the frequency of their sales to meet demand.

All-in-all, I have to wonder if there is enough material to support so many auctions, or will a certain amount of "recycling" or "profit-taking" occur...buy some speculative 1970s issues in one sale, then 6 months later consign them. Or buy a large collection and turn around and sell off the 'key' items (there are quite a few collection lots that are sold with all the nice M/S and such intact).

When it comes to 'one-off' items, ie. postal history, you can't flip an item so quickly, as new interested parties won't come along so quickly, but the scarce standard issues are like blue-chip stocks, you can always find a buyer and their price moves with the economy and the mood of the market.

Any news about Zurich Asia auction?

Thanks,
Roberto.

ZurchAsia's sale was Sunday 20th-Monday 21st February. I wasn't able to attend all of the sale Sunday (missed the Large/Small Dragons, and the PRC, only saw the late Imperial-Republic material), and couldn't attend Monday. The Prices Realized have all been posted up now so to flip through the catalouge and summarize.

From what I saw of the sale, it didn't seem to be a blockbuster. The room was average in size, and only half-filled. At the back of the room was a 'lounge' area and was quite busy with people relaxing and socializing. Many of the people in the saleroom seemed to be 'just watching' with bidding being a patter but hardly a sea of interest.

This sale offered 2,162 lots, and realized (including premium) $19,164,158HKD. Compare that to the last sale in September, which had 3,255 lots and a realization of $25,602,068.

The sale prices quoted here are of course in HKD, and include the 15% buyer's premium.

The small section of Shanghai Large Dragons were over-estimate 30-50%.

The equally small Local Post section was humdrum as tends to be for this material.

In the Imperial Large Dragons, things came alive as tends to happen. A full sheet of 3candarins made $345,000 on est. of $180-200,000. Sets/singles generally made 50-150% over estimate. Same story for Small Dragons, going at double estimate.

Red Revenues went for 2-4 times estimate. A 2ct on 3ct inverted surcharge estimatedat $150-200,000 made $195,500. A sign that estimates on high-end pieces are easier to set, or estimates on the standard material are set low?

Through the later Imperial material, things seemed to be going for the most part within estimate. Nothing extraordinary of note here. In the postal history it was interesting to note that while items in up to $5,000 or so would sell, items in the 5-figure range generally weren't. Many collectors may still be in the 'gap-filling' stage of collecting maturity. No need for details, but suffice to say that probably half the items 50 lots starting with 238 were passed.

Republic period had nothing special stand out. Items generally sold within estimate, and most material was moderately valued ($1,000-3,000). Thus even something making 50% above estimate is only a difference of a few hundred HKD.

Then of course there's the PRC material. This is where things get more interesting, and surely accounted for well over half the auction take.

Lot 743, 1953 Military issue Orange, blk/4, est. $5,500-6,500 made $17,250. This was followed by a block of the Yellow, est. $4-5,000, going for $14,950.

Lot 752, a 8f View of Peking with sunburst, est. at $400-500,000, made $713,000.

Monument of People's Heroes went for $2,300 (est. $1,000-1,200).
1958 Kuan Han Ching M/S, several each a bit over $4,000 ea (estimates $1,500-2,600)
1960 Goldfish UM $6,325; MH $2,990 (est. $3-3,500 and $1,500-2,000 respectively)
Chrysanthemums MLH $5,750 (est. $2,500-3,000)
1961 Table Tennis M/S, several at $11,500-$12,650 ea (est. $5-8,500)
Mei Lan-Fang set UM $13,800 (est $10-12,000) and $8,050 (est. $5-5,500 as colour faded)
Mei Lan-Fang set with corner margins $17,250 (est. $8-10,000)
The Mei Lan-Fang M/S UM full OG "possibly the nicest copy we have handled" made $184,000 (est. $140-160,000)

1963 Butterflies, several at $2,760-3,220 (est. $2-2,500)
Huangshan landscapes, a couple sets UM at $6,325 ea (est. $3-4,000)
1964 Peonies, several UM sets at $3,220-3,450 ea (est. $2,000-3,000)
Peonies M/S, several at $32,200-36,800 ea (est. $20-25,000)
1964 PRC 15th Anniv M/S, a couple at $25,300 and $32,200; also one CTO at $20,700 (all well above est)
1967 Thoughts of Mao strip UM $27,600 (est $20-22,000)
Long Live Chairman Mao in sheets, at 2-4 times est.
Poems of Chairman Mao in sheets, at 3 times est. (ie. $6-9,000 est for $17,250; $5-8,000 est at $19,550)
1968 Instructions from Mao, UM unfolded strip, $40,250 (est. $32-35,000)

The Whole Country is Red, Mint, woefully off-centre, described as having "defects and repairs", est. $350-400,000 made $690,000.
Great Victory of Cult. Rev. (W82), est. $350-400,000 made $632,500.

1969 Red Lantern UM blks/4, $4,370 (est. $2-2,500). Sheets of 50 went at double est. for $48,300 (est. $20-30,000)
Galloping Horses, many M/S UM at about $5,000 ea (est $3,400-3,800). A sealed post office pack of 100 failed to sell at est. $800,000-$1,000,000. Not surprising, why pay $8,000 per for a $5,000 sheet?
Arts & Crafts M/S UM $3,220-3,680 (est $1,800-3,000)
Highway Bridge M/S about $3,500 each (several, est $2-3,000 ea)
1978 Science Conference M/S UM (many, often toned) about $4,000 ea (double est.)
Study Science M/S, a couple at $18,400 and $19,550, est. $14-16,000

1980 Monkey, 2 full sheets at $1,207,500 and $1,299,500 (est. $1,000,000-1,100,000 ea)
Blocks of 4 (2 lots) at $55,200 each (est. $30-40,000)
A single, $13,800 (est. $9-9,500)
1980 Gu Dong booklet (several) $6,325 each (est $4-6,000 ea)
Qi Baishi M/S $2,530 (est $1,600-1,800)
1981 Year of the Cock, full sheets of 80. Many of them. Either single sheets or groups of 5. Went for $25-30,000 per sheet (est $20-32,000)
The Cock booklet $2,530 (est. $1,300-1,500)
Dream of Red Mansion M/S, lots made up of 2 copies each, for $3,450-$4,025 (est. $1,200-2,500)
1982 Year of the Dog, 1983 Year of the Pig, lots of x5 or x10 full sheets made $10,000 per sheet.

The quantity of full sheets of all issues from 1960s "Mao inscriptions" issues through the 1980s New Year issues was astounding; what I mention here is far from complete.

A collection of "Shanghai Defence Force 1927-40" postal history in single lots mostly failed to sell.

Taiwan featured masses of the Emperor set. Sets of blks/4 UM made $11,500 and $12,650 (est $9-10,000 ea) while blocks of 6 with printer imprint made $20,700 (est. $5-6,000). Pairs were $5,520 a set (est $4-5,000) and sets of singles were $2,760-$3,220. (I wish I hadn't sold my set a couple years ago, for about half that. )

The Hong Kong section was fairly small. Another copy of the 1865 96ct olive-bistre, est. $500-600,000, was passed. Plate/requisition numbers are always popular; Lot 1914 est. $2,500-3,000 went for $8,625. The Annigoni Portrait issue UM VF est $800-1,000 went for $1,265; a set missing the $10 went for $1,035 (est $800-1,000 also).

Its been queried before in threads "will Chinese collectors start collecting Hong Kong etc.?" Well, it appears that hasn't started yet. The HK part of sales generally attracts a smaller group of bidders, likely locals. Then the Macau section sees even less action, given the size of that territory.

Another weekend, another sale. This time it was Interasia.

Their sales have been on a steady upward progress, with each having more lots and total realization. Last autumn's sale set a new record for total realization of a stamp auction in HK, at $66million HKD. When I got the catalogues for this sale, I knew it would be a blockbuster, and figured we would see the first $100-million sale. Now its not a matter of 'if' that landmark will be broken, but 'by how much'.

This sale offered 3,000 lots, meaning the schedule has been stretched to 3 days. A staff-member told me today (day 2) that yesterday they finished at 11.45pm. Today was 'better', finishing at 10pm. The sales start at 9.30am each day.

I'll break my post down because it will be quite long otherwise. This post will cover Day 1, Imperial China. The total 'take' for Day 1 was $52.2 million HKD (that's only for Imperial China, PRC came on Day 2, and what a whopper of its own that part was).

The sale prices quoted here are of course in HKD, and include the 15% buyer's premium.

In a superb showing of Large Dragons, essays were 50% over est.; in singles or pairs sold for $18-46,000. A complete sheet of 3 candarin essays reached $977,500 on est. of $600-800,000. On the other hand a sheet of 5 candarins was passed, with an est. of $4.5-5.5 million. Several other high-profile items also did not sell.

In the issued stamps, sets of the three mint made $17-25,000 depending on gum condition. Used were in the $8-11,000 range. Then endless masses of specialized material, watermarks and cancels and more

As usual, realizations were 50-100% over-estimate. I am thinking that catalogue estimates are redundant really, items will sell for whatever they reach, and there are many savvy buyers in the room who know the market price of items, espescially in the 'hot' areas such as Imperial and PRC.

Then, the Small Dragons. Transitioning to the second special catalogue, the adage "size matters" came to mind. Realizations here were a bit lacklustre. Whereas the room had been packed for the Large Dragons, quite a few attendees left for a break during this part.

Sets went for $3-5,000 mint, $1,400 used. There were masses of cancels again which proved popular, making about x2 estimate. 3/4 of the 'important' items sold, but usually only at low estimate, the others were passed. A large number of items nonetheless in the 5- or 6-figure range.

Then came the Sun Yat-sen Central Trust Printing 16cts and its overprints. Yes, an entire exhibition collection devoted to this one stamp in a set. Strong interest in the room for this material.

Most everything was going at double estimate or more. Its a rather specialized field so difficult to choose items to highlight as examples. This collection showed that the market is interested in material that is fresh and interesting.

Star lot in this section was a collection of blocks of the stamp overprinted for use in various regions, altogether 14 diff. ovpts. As a couple of the blocks are unique, this assembly is therefore also. Est. was $300-400,000, and it brought a solid $862,500. Regional overprints seem to be a major feature of this issue (I don't know about it myself), making collecting a bit tricky if one can't read Chinese.

The Dowager Empress' 60th Birthday issue went for $13-25,000 mint depending on condition. Used were in the $8,200-8,600 range. Rough perfs, poor centering, only part OG and toning are all 'issues' here affecting value.

New currency surcharges: $3,220 mint for small figures (3 sets offered); $9-15,000 for large figures mint.

Red Revenues, as in ZurichAsia's sale, went for 2-4 times estimate. Opening the section was a 2c on 3c with imperf margin, making $1.61 million on est. of $1-1.2 million. Generally speaking, the 2c on 3c or 1c on 3c make in the $4,000's mint and $2,000's used for singles. That climbs to $14-25,000 mint/$5-6,000 used for the 4c on 3c.

Then there's the $1 on 3c and $5 on 3c, which are scarce in any form. The $5 on 3c offered 2 important pieces. A pair, which made $3.4million (one of only 3 recorded) anda strip of 3 with inverted ovpt, at $5.5million.

In Later Imperial, proofs and specimens are always in demand. Sets of 1913 London printing with Specimen ovpt made $16 and 20,000, double or more est. A "normal set" made $19,550.

The 1914-19 First Peking printing offered 2 mint sets at $16 and $28,000. Another rarity, the $2 Halls of Classics inverted centre, rose to $1,955,000. Comparable to an Inverted Jenny, but only 30 of this stamp exist,and this was a corner margin copy, one of only 2.

Finally, there was a large section devoted to airmail postal history. Reading Stampboards I see that there is a big big following for aerophilately down in Oz, and the same is true in other parts of the world (ie. Zeppelinpost in Germany). Strong prices in this section seem to indicate a lot of interest in this field for China also.

A 1911 Coronation first aerial post card addressed to China made $20,700. A 1920 Peking-Tientsin FFC made $241,500. You probably won't find one of these in a junk box though, the catalogue states only 35 covers were carried. A cover from the return flight made $264,500. Interestingly, its noted 110 covers were on that flight. Then masses of items in the $3-10,000 or more range. In fact I note little under $2,000 included.

For someone who wants to 'hit the ground running' in building a collection of Imperial China, there was "a valuable old-time collection offered intact", which made $1,840,000. For that you got enough material to fill a small auction sale.

Finally a big offering of a couple hundred postal stationery lots. Amazing to see 1ct postcards of 1900-era making $4-10,000 each. Compare this to the post office-issued postal stationery of other countries, which is often pretty common stuff (ie. a lot of USA cards are dollar box items). Find these items in an old album or cover lot and you might have a good day.

Interasia Day 2: PRC material.

Prices again in HKD, but these are hammer prices, not including the 15% buyer's premium.

1950 Inauguration of People's Rep, $800-30,000 Yang C23-30 mint sets $13-16,000 each.
1952 Physical Exercise blocks Yang S14-S53 mint $12-13,000. A set of blks/8 with imprint were $90,000. A set of used interestingly went for $15,000. Harder to fine used than mint?
1958 Kuan Han Ching M/S Yang C50M mint, several at $4,200-4,500
1960 Goldfish Yang S182-S193 UM/M $3-3,500
For the deep-pocketed, the unissued 1958 Students Union Congress with incorrect inscriptions set of 2, for $1,500,000 (est. $900,000-1,000,000).

Chrysanthemums Yang S210-227 UM $4,000-4,500; with imprints but regummed $18,000
1961 Table Tennis M/S Yang C86M, Mint at $9,500 and $12,000, CTO at $9,000
Mei Lan-Fang set mint $7,500-9,000 (some with condition problems)
The Mei Lan-Fang M/S Yang C94M Mint, several at $110-140,000 depending on condition, CTO $80,000

1963 Children's Day Yang C267i-78i imperf Mint $2,400-3,000; with imprints: $5,500 singles; $35,000 pairs, $65,000 blks/4.
Butterflies Yang S285-304 Mint, several at $2,800-3,200
Huangshan landscapes Yang S305-320, several Mint (disturbed gum) at $4,200-4,800; CTO $3,200
Giant Panda S330-32 & imperf S332-32i several at $3,200 each
Golden Monkeys Yang S333i-335i several at $2,000-2,400 (some sets included the normal perf version also)

1964 Peonies Yang S336-350, several UM sets generally $3,500-4,000 (few condition issues)
Peonies M/S Yang S61M, many at $30-38,000. Some terribly toned (soaked in tea yellow in the catalogue image) and with other condition issues still made $26,000. CTO $12-14,000
PRC 15th Anniv M/S Yang C106M, again many at $26-35,000, a couple higher (aberration?). CTO $16,000, FDC $18,000.
Petroleum Industry Yang S383-87 M with gum issues, several at $2,000; UM $4,000

1967 Liu Yingjun Yang C397-402 UM $3-3,500, Hinged $2,200
Thoughts of Mao Yang W1-W11, more than a dozen sets $26-30,000 mint (with typical tarnish on gold); $35 and 50,000 for "fractionally dull" and "outstanding" sets respectively. $11-17,000 for CTO; an incredible $130,000 for a cover with the popular imprints.
Our Great Teacher Yang W12-19 UM $11-13,000 UM, $7,500 H, $3,500-4,200 CTO.
Talks on Literature and Art Yang W20-22 $12,000 UM, $9,000 H, $4,200-5,500 CTO.
Long Live to Chairman Mao Yang W23-27 $2,800-3,000 UM.

1968Revolutionary Lit & Art Yang W28-36 UM $9,500 and $13,000. H $7-8,500. U $2,400-2,600.
1967 Poems of Chairman Mao W39-52 UM $28-32,000. H $28,000. Used all over the place at $4-18,000. A commercial (?) cover with the set for $75,000 (est. $10-12,000).
1968 Instructions (Directives) from Mao, Yang W55-59, again a dozen sets UM $40-48,000. U $28-30,000. The strips in singles $16-24,000.

The Whole Country is Red, Used, beautifully centered. Noted creasing and minor flaws. Bidding opened at $200,000. Someone in the room called out $600,000. Final hammer was $650,000 (calling out an amount that raised a laugh in the room helped speed things up in the end I guess). Estimate by the way was $300-400,000.

1971 Paris Commune Yang N8-11 UM $3,200-3,500
1974 Industrial Products Yang N78-81 3 sets UM as 1 lot for $6,500
1978 National Science Conf. MS Yang J25M $4,000 (less copies at $3,500-3,800)
Galloping Horses M/S, Yang T28M, 10 offered, UM $4,200-4,500 ea. (lesser copies at $3,500-3,800).
Arts & Crafts M/S Yang T29M 8 offered, UM $2,800-3,000 ea.
Highway Bridge M/S Yang T31M 11 offered, $3,000-3,200 ea.

1979 Camellias & HK Exhibition M/S (2 diff), Yang T37M & J42M, $4,500
Great Wall & Riccione Fair M/S (2 diff) Yang T38M & J41M $6,500 UM, $5-5,500 H.
Study Science M/S Yang J41M, 17 offered, $17-18,000 ea.
1980 Qi Baishi M/S Yang T44M $2,200-2,400.


1980 Monkey Yang T234, a full sheet at $950,000
Blocks of 4 (4 lots) at $45,-52,000
Pairs at $24,000
Singles at $12,000 ($1,547USD on the day)

1980 Gu Dong booklet Yang SB1, 11 offered, $5,500-6,000 ea.
1981 Dream of Red Mansion M/S Yang T69M, a lot of 2 for $3,000; lots of 3 for $5,000 and $5,500
Year of Cock booklet, Yang SB3, 8 offered at $2,600-2,800; a lot of 2 for $6,000; a lot of 4 for $11,000.

aethelwulf wrote:
The Whole Country is Red, Used, beautifully centered. Noted creasing and minor flaws. Bidding opened at $200,000. Someone in the room called out $600,000. Final hammer was $650,000 (calling out an amount that raised a laugh in the room helped speed things up in the end I guess). Estimate by the way was $300-400,000.

Great summary Jeremy.

So this used copy with some faults got $HK747,500 = $US95,976.13 (Members MUST read Jeremy's posts carefully .. for some auctions the figures given above are INCLUDING Buyers Fee, and some are without it! In this market adding it is the only true way to see a INVOICE price!)

A dealer friend phoned me today to say he felt I was certifiably INSANE for buying one of these used on a "Little Red Book" last year for $A42,000. He now says it looks like a great buy.

The list of PRC P.R. is not all filled in yet as one can see, will get to that tonight hopefully. Filling in the details is almost as tiring on the fingers as hours sitting is on the rump. Although as the auctioneer put it when he asked someone to shift over a seat so he could see the bidders behind "at least you can sit down, I have to stand up here all day".

I just received the realized prices from Interasia and my invoice for one mere miserable lot. I bidded on 13 lots - perhaps I should have consulted aethelwulf first how much to bid

Now I am worried because I bidded within estimates, so obviously I got it because nobody else wanted it ?

Do you have any advice for someone new to China philately with limited funds and willing to spend up to USD10k per annum?

With value preservation in mind at least, (barring unforeseen circumstances or bubble burst) what should the collector aim to buy first?

Local posts, Large Dragons to Empress Dowager, CIP/ICP, Republic, Provinces, Jap Occ, Cultural Revolution, PRC - in your opinion which has highest scarcity factor and would likely score higher for rarity in future?

Is this the right place to get some opinion?

aethelwulf wrote:
ZurchAsia's sale was Sunday 20th-Monday 21st February.

The Whole Country is Red, Mint, woefully off-centre, described as having "defects and repairs", est. $350-400,000 made $690,000.

That is a STUPID price to pay for an ugly looking stamp, with major condition issues.

Global Administrator wrote:

aethelwulf wrote:
ZurchAsia's sale was Sunday 20th-Monday 21st February.

The Whole Country is Red, Mint, woefully off-centre, described as having "defects and repairs", est. $350-400,000 made $690,000.

That is a STUPID price to pay for an ugly looking stamp, with major condition issues. :shock

I was shaking my head at that one too. Being only a week later, Interasia's catalogues were on everybody's table, and posted online. Takes 2 minutes to do a comparison glance through the catalogues and see that there's 1 mint 2 used on offer by Interasia, so why be so desperate for the copy that ZurichAsia had?

A John Bull sale last year, I think it was the Autumn 2010 sale, had 7 copies of this stamp. ZurichAsia's was (no fault to them) in plain terrible shape, woeful centering and a lot of condition issues described in the catalogue. If it were me I would have bid $200,000 if it were going begging, otherwise I'd hold out for a better one. But then, PRC material doesn't go begging for bids...

aethelwulf wrote:

Global Administrator wrote:

aethelwulf wrote:
ZurchAsia's sale was Sunday 20th-Monday 21st February.

The Whole Country is Red, Mint, woefully off-centre, described as having "defects and repairs", est. $350-400,000 made $690,000.

That is a STUPID price to pay for an ugly looking stamp, with major condition issues. :shock

I was shaking my head at that one too. Being only a week later, Interasia's catalogues were on everybody's table, and posted online. Takes 2 minutes to do a comparison glance through the catalogues and see that there's 1 mint 2 used on offer by Interasia, so why be so desperate for the copy that ZurichAsia had?

A John Bull sale last year, I think it was the Autumn 2010 sale, had 7 copies of this stamp. ZurichAsia's was (no fault to them) in plain terrible shape, woeful centering and a lot of condition issues described in the catalogue. If it were me I would have bid $200,000 if it were going begging, otherwise I'd hold out for a better one. But then, PRC material doesn't go begging for bids...

It is such anomalies that led some people to conclude that money launderers are at work here. I know we discussed this before and we have concluded it's not worth their while but it's definitely a neat way to wash dirty money perhaps going unnoticed compared to a one time deal in antiques or property?

enoch wrote:It is such anomalies that led some people to conclude that money launderers are at work here. I know we discussed this before and we have concluded it's not worth their while but it's definitely a neat way to wash dirty money perhaps going unnoticed compared to a one time deal in antiques or property?

I would say money laundering is probably not at work here, as buying high-priced rarities such as the All China is Red or Treasures of the Republic wouldn't really 'work'--people would recognize if the same stamp came up for sale a few months later, and the M/S and such are 'only' a few thousand HKD (few hundred USD) each, you'd have to buy masses of them.

People engaged in illegal activities have so much money to 'do something' with. I read before that drug cartels in America had so much cash, they couldn't even use the counting machines, it was too slow. They bought very accurate electronic scales and weighed the money. They knew precisely how much $1 million in $20s or $100s weighed. Then there was the kingpin who had $40-something million in cash hidden inside a basement wall--the money sat there a long time waiting to be moved, it was damp in there and the money disintegrated.

enoch wrote:I just received the realized prices from Interasia and my invoice for one mere miserable lot. I bidded on 13 lots - perhaps I should have consulted aethelwulf first how much to bid

Now I am worried because I bidded within estimates, so obviously I got it because nobody else wanted it ?

Local posts, Large Dragons to Empress Dowager, CIP/ICP, Republic, Provinces, Jap Occ, Cultural Revolution, PRC - in your opinion which has highest scarcity factor and would likely score higher for rarity in future?

I made a list of all the lots I was interested in...there were a couple dozen or more on my 'radar'. Everything in China I was blown out of the water. Other items of interest to me were incoming mail from overseas, again prices were insane. In auction catalogues I was going for a copy of a Mongolia sale...I had left a written bid, then got a moment to follow the sale online, when bidding went over my original bid I started bidding online...in the end the catalogue went for $2,400 + BP...$350USD for a 1980s Feldman catalogue!

I would say your 'problem' is you bid within estimate. The only thing the estimate is good for is to tell you what number you should double then write on your bidsheet. Then you might get 3 or 4 of your 13 lots...If you're interested in the PRC items with printer imprint, triple estimate is typical.

What to collect...well, you should choose something you are interested in. If you are looking for an area to build a collection in with an eye on future resale value, you're only half-collector, half-investor.

I would say Large Dragons are being chased after like the dragon chasing the pearl (or the squirrel and his acorn in Ice Age ). The 'attitude' of buyers to the Large vs. Small dragons last weekend was amazing, there was much less interest in the latter, though they're still OK...the colours a bit wishy-washy to me.

I like the Coiling Dragons issue...there's so much there to collect, what with the ROC ovpts. Lots of postal history, and the stamps are not expensive. If the Large Dragons, PRC et al keep up their pace, collectors priced out of the market will start having to look elsewhere for material to collect.

Provinces are darned hard if you can't read Chinese, thus can't read the ovpts. Also interest there is hit-and-miss. In the catalogue of the 16ct SYS, ovpts from one province might be snapped up, then another province sees lot after lot passed, then the next province is bought again. Natives of the regions 'collecting their own'?

The Martyrs and SYS issue can be a good (endless) study, what with the many printings (London, HK, Chung Hwa), endless anti-bandit ovpts, and then part-perf pairs. I remember reading the obit of Paul Chang, a leading philatelist, in the China Clipper few months back, it said that when he attended an auction his hand would go up at the start of the postal history section and wouldn't come down until the section was finished. He wrote authoritative texts on postal history and postmarks, esp. the Gold Yuan (later ROC) material.

If you want to buy Cult Rev, you need deep pockets, unless you're happy to plunk your annual stamp budget in a handful of stamps (that's why some people enjoy kiloware and the like, it gives them 'more stamps on the album page to look at'). Put it this way: you are interested in Impressionist paintings. You can have 1 Monet at 10million quid, or 10 paintings by other talented artists for the same total spend.

Local posts seem to have little interest from buyers. Too much a symbol of imperial rule/foreign domination? Yet the 1st and 2nd Customs Issue (aka the Large & Small Dragons) were issued when a Scot was the head of the dept.

Foreign post offices seem to do OK overall. I think there might be some 'home interest' there, ie. Russian post office is strong, with Russian buyers probably snapping up material. German POs usually fare OK too. Italian post office is, like the post office in Italy itself, rather hopeless.

enoch ... I think you'll find there is countless BILLIONS of cash swishing around HK at any given second just looking for a fairly safe place to be spent.

A good client is a MD of a large ozzie bank there. He phones me each month or so to buy stamps, and tells me stories of amounts of mainland money his staff are approached to find a home for each week, that would blow your mind.

Property is up and down like a yo-yo there, losing billions for each downspike, and right now, Cultural Revolution stamps have been doing nothing but going UP for a year or two, so for some, it is a safer bet.

Is there very little demand for the stamps of the Italian Post Office in China? How much of that material actually comes on the market, and what is the pricing for it like?

What are some of the 'strong' Provinces, and some of the 'weak' Provinces at the moment?

How is the area of the Treaty Ports doing?

Great thread, by the way!

I was outbid by just one step in 4 of the lots, so I guess in each of the lot it was just me against the other fellow. If I were room bidder or online, the outcome will depend on who is more adamant to get it.

I share some of your observations particularly regarding the coiling dragons and local posts. The latter threw up some surprises though, such as the WUHU essay which went roughly 16 times estimates and I had bidded just above the higher estimate (!). Regarding the provinces, I noticed some provinces are scarcer and the interest shown reflects that much.

I went through the price realizations last night until 2am to scout for suitable unsold lots (or withdrawn) -there were a few that interest me but I think I will reserve my funds for this weekend for a totally unrelated area and field of collecting - The World at War at Prestige.

Yes, at the moment, I am a hybrid between collector and investor and will remain that way for awhile. The scope is too wide and prices too high to stay focus in any one area.

If you find any of these in an old album/junk lot/flea market, ring your travel agent...you can book anything from a weekend at a B&B to a trip-round-the-world.

These are items from the Ng Siong Tee Cultural Revolution collection auctioned on 27 Feb by Interasia. Prices given are hammer (not including 15% BP).

I've added the images here to create a bit of a 'photo reference' so you know what to look out for.


Yang W1-W11; hammer $85,000 (sold for such a high price because of the freshness of the gold)


Yang W12-W19; hammer $35,000


Yang W20-W22; hammer $11,000


Yang W23-W27 (in pairs); hammer $4,000

Yang W28-W36; hammer $24,000


Yang W37-W38; hammer $5,500


Yang W39-W52; hammer $38,000


Yang W54 (block of 4); hammer $19,000

Yang W55-W59; hammer $45,000


Yang W61 (in block of 4, and not from the Ng collection); hammer $32,000


Yang W62; hammer $14,000


Yang W82 (described as a "truly outstanding" copy); hammer $2,200,000.

All prices from the Interasia sale now updated. Whew, that was a marathon.

Eric Casagrande wrote:Is there very little demand for the stamps of the Italian Post Office in China? How much of that material actually comes on the market, and what is the pricing for it like?

What are some of the 'strong' Provinces, and some of the 'weak' Provinces at the moment?

How is the area of the Treaty Ports doing?

The amount of material that comes up is, obviously, to a large degree dependent on the size of the original PO. There is lots of material from the French, German and Japanese POs in China; a good amount of Russian PO, fair amount of USA, then the odd piece from the Italian and Austrian offices.

The UK was in a special position, in that they didn't overprint GB stamps as they did in Morocco et al, they used Hong Kong stamps. In the QV period, they weren't even specially overprinted, and are collected based on the specially-numbered postmarks. During EdVII and GeoV the defin issues of HK were overprinted.

French and German material generally all sells through around estimate; Russian material can go pretty strong, given the demand from 'home' for such; the USA sells at estimate, while the Italian and Austrian may or may not even sell, and then often not well. You could have a rare Italian offices item with a Michel of 50,000Euro, and you 'might' get a 10% of that.

HK used in China are actively pursued by collectors of HK, as they see the stamps as an extension of HK issues themselves.

I can't speak with any real knowledge on the provinces material, as that's just too 'foreign' to me to know what's what with that material. All those local overprints or anti-bandit ovpts, and all in Chinese that I can't read....

Treaty ports do fair I'd say, but only that. The action and interest that can be seen in the room for China proper just isn't there during the Treaty port section. Some material sells at estimate, a small number of items might get high bids, but a lot languishes.

enoch wrote:I share some of your observations particularly regarding the coiling dragons and local posts. The latter threw up some surprises though, such as the WUHU essay which went roughly 16 times estimates and I had bidded just above the higher estimate (!).

I just received the realized prices from Interasia and my invoice for one mere miserable lot. I bidded on 13 lots - perhaps I should have consulted aethelwulf first how much to bid

16 times estimate on a Treaty port piece...that will have the consignor saying "woohoo".

I got my invoice a day after you, and similarly got 1 lot, a group of Thailand. My consignments did fair, a SYS group went for double est., and the literature at least sold, though not grandly.

How to bid? Well I'd say ignore the estimates, decide what an item is worth to you and expect to pay that much or more. If its a 'hot' area you're after, then expect to pay at least 50% over estimate, likely double. If its a collection lot of China Republic, x5 estimate; PRC collection, x10 estimate.

Thanks for the indepth reply on the Italian POs, the Provinces, and the Treaty Ports.

Very interesting, for sure.

A week after Jeremy's first hand and detailed report, here is their official press release!

==============

Interasia February 26-28 Auction Realises a Record HK$ 98 Million

Our February 26-28 auction this past weekend was the largest stamp auction ever held in Hong Kong as well as the largest auction ever of China and Hong Kong, realising HK$ 98,718,461 (US$ 12,674,089; all realisations include the 15% buyer's premium), shattering the previous record of HK$ 61.5 million set by our sale last summer. Thank you all for your participation.

The prices in the auction were very strong to extraordinary almost across the board, starting with the China Large Dragon stamps and continuing through the Qing Dynasty and then the Early Republic, followed by staggering realisations for the ever popular People's Republic. The unique 1968 Mao's Inscription to Japanese Worker Friends corner block of four sold for HK$ 8,970,000 (US$ 1,151,630), a new world record for a Chinese stamp at auction.

The two Red Revenue $5 multiples likewise achieved extraordinary realizations: the corner strip of three of the $5 inverted surcharge realised HK$ 5,520,000 (US$ 708,697), a world record for a Classic Chinese multiple at auction, and the marginal pair of the normal $5 brought a breathtaking HK$ 3,450,000 (US$ 442,936).

Taiwan also was strongly followed, and Hong Kong showed renewed interest, no doubt in part because of the outstanding material from the "Alicante" collection. Take a look at the prices realised on the website, if you haven't already, to see the spectacular results. In addition, we plan to send a more detailed sale report in a subsequent email.

Our next auction will be in the fall. If you are thinking of selling your collection or just have stamps or covers you no longer need, you should strongly consider consigning with us. Interasia has cemented itself as the preeminent auction firm worldwide for China and Hong Kong.

We have an established track record of getting the highest prices, no doubt because of our extensive worldwide customer list that includes all the major collectors, our unrivalled expertise, our accurate and well-presented catalogues, and our extensive promotion and advertising. Compare our results with other auction firms, and I think you'll see the Interasia difference.

Our market position and increasing market share are likewise testament to our results. You should try to get your consignments to us as soon as you can to give us plenty of time to promote and process them. It's a great time to take advantage of the outstanding market for China, Hong Kong and Asia! If you need help with your consignment, don't hesitate to call or write us.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Interasia Auctions Limited
Suite A, 13/F, Shun Ho Tower
24-30 Ice House Street
Central, Hong Kong
tel: +852 2868 6046 fax: +852 2868 6146
www.interasia-auctions.com

While prices for the early Ching Dynasty materials have sky rocketed, prices for the later coiling dragon issues and the early republic period junk issues prices only recorded moderate increases. Just wonder when will be the turn for these issues to get crazy. Talked to an expert and he is very bullish and snapping up materials for these issues in the recent auctions. Any one shares his views.

Thanks for all the feedback and comments.

Regarding the Cultural Revolution, not sure if it was due to the high prices, but those that you posted here seem very attractive because I never did like them much when I was a student in the 80s. I remembered a classmate from the school stamp club who was crazy over China stamps and went round trying to complete a one each out of his pocket money whilst the rest of us were contented with GB and Australia. I have lost touch with him and if he still have those stamps, all I will say is some guys have all the luck...

Goldfinch05 wrote:While prices for the early Ching Dynasty materials have sky rocketed, prices for the later coiling dragon issues and the early republic period junk issues prices only recorded moderate increases. Just wonder when will be the turn for these issues to get crazy. Talked to an expert and he is very bullish and snapping up materials for these issues in the recent auctions. Any one shares his views.

I would say that eventually, a lot of people will feel 'priced out of the market' for Large Dragons, and will look further afield for a collecting interest.

The Large Dragons are generally rather bad for perfs and condition, but thats the norm. The Dowager set is downright atrocious (I'm a bit of a perfectionist). On a purely aesthetic level, the Coiling Dragons and Junk issues provide material that is easy to find in VF condition, and the stamps are quite attractive designs in themselves to boot.

The Coiling Dragons offer a wealth of material, what with the ROC ovpts, which 'doubles' the collectable amount of material right there. If you had $10,000 HKD to spend, would you go to an auction and buy 1 set of Large Dragons (3 stamps) or a smorgasbord of Coiling Dragon stamps & postal history? If you're at a stage where you're trying to build a collection of something, the latter obviously gives "more bang for your buck".

I hope you are right!

When I first collected the early period stamps, I had the same idea as you do and went for the more esthetically more pleasing stamps ie the red revenues, coiling dragons and junk series. Unfortunately capital appreciation has no direct relationship with how beautiful a stamp looks and even the used versions of the large and small dragons appreciated much faster than the later period materials. At this moment I am pondering what to do with my complete collection of the coiling dragon and junk definitives.

As to your question of what to do with HK$10,000, I spend it all on Cultural Revolution material which is probably a safer bet.

Is there someone who can explain me why block of 4 have a so big surplus on PRC stamps?

In the last J.Bull auction a block of 4 of C71 was sold for HK$ 34.500 while a single stamp is sold for about HK$1.500.

Are block of 4 so collected and so rare?

Couple of more questions, if I may:

What is the main catalogue that collectors go by, whether they are after the earliest issues (large dragons, dowager, etcetera), or after the later, cultural revolution issues?

Does the Gibbons catalogue at all have a following with China collectors?

Erik .. YANG is the Cat most use I think for China.

Do I have the most recent at 2009? (15th Ed) Orange red cover. Hardly seems credible that a new one is not out given the massive increases?

I have a full gum MUH 1972 Merchant Shipping set on my desk that Yang says is $US80.

Retail Seems to be between $US150 and $US350.

DARN hard to know what to price any given basic set at.

The way China stamp prices are going, prices published by any catalog are probably out of date by the time it goes out to print!

For the latest market prices, you are better off checking the auction prices and/or ebay prices. For PRC issues, an outfit in Beijing publishes a monthly newsletter containing buy/sell prices of nearly all the issues and the HK stamp dealers usually follow them.

As to the hot items, early Ching Dynasty period, Cultural Revolution and the N series, certain issues of the C and S series, the early miniature sheets of the J and T issues and of course the monkey stamp which goes for HK$10,000 a piece.

admin wrote:Erik .. YANG is the Cat most use I think for China.

Do I have the most recent at 2009? (15th Ed) Orange red cover. Hardly seems credible that a new one is not out given the massive increases?

I have a full gum MUH 1972 Merchant Shipping set on my desk that Yang says is $US80.

Retail Seems to be between $US150 and $US350.

DARN hard to know what to price any given basic set at.

It's sure that Yang is the best catalogue for PRC (colour photos for every single stamp and it follow the original stamps numeration) but probably Michel is the best to know market retail prices.

Yes prices are weird to guess. These 2 sets I am about to list here for about $A100. Fresh fresh well centred MUH. Retail seems to be above $125 last time I looked?

1979 Pilgrimage and 1983 String Instruments. What is the supposed retail on these please?

Global Administrator wrote:
1979 Pilgrimage and 1983 String Instruments. What is the supposed retail on these please?

For Pilgrimage about 70 US$, for instrument less than 30 US$.

For some reason, I had thought that collectors of China had always used the Ma catalogue.

By the way, for those who might be members of the China Stamp Society, did the group finally manage to complete its rewriting - republishing of their new and updated Ma catalogue?

Eric Casagrande wrote:For some reason, I had thought that collectors of China had always used the Ma catalogue.

By the way, for those who might be members of the China Stamp Society, did the group finally manage to complete its rewriting - republishing of their new and updated Ma catalogue?

Yang is published once every 2 years (at least their HK catalogue is, so I expect the same for China). I remember seeing a yellow-cover one, maybe that's a 2010?

Yang is all in colour, simple, easy to read. Ma is denser and more complicated. So for simple listings of cat. #'s and guide to prices, Yang has what you need. ZurichAsia has been selling the new edition of Ma, a 2-volume affair and that only runs up to 1949.

Thank you for the clarification on the catalogues.

Don't know if you mentioned it, but are Chinese collectors big on MNH, or is hinged / lightly hinged also viewed as being acceptable, when it comes to cultural revolution and modern material?

I am guessing hinged may be viewed as a fact of life for the older (pre-1950) issues, but I could stand corrected.

aethelwulf wrote: I remember seeing a yellow-cover one, maybe that's a 2010?

No, it was the 2009 edition (the red one is the 2006 edition).

aethelwulf wrote: ZurichAsia has been selling the new edition of Ma, a 2-volume affair and that only runs up to 1949.

Do you have an address to buy it? (are you sure that it's the new edition? I knew that China Stamps Society has the copyright).

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=21394

I was selling these for $40 the pair .. are these NOT the most current?

Global Administrator wrote: I was selling these for $40 the pair .. are these NOT the most current?

For PRC, yes it's the most current one. For HK i don't know, i don't collect it.

The Dynasty Auction catalog for the Mar 26/27 is now ready. I have a quick glimpse, a bit of everything and nothing spectacular.

Goldfinch05 wrote:The Dynasty Auction catalog for the Mar 26/27 is now ready. I have a quick glimpse, a bit of everything and nothing spectacular.

Is their website operational? Linn's story several weeks ago announcing the founding of the firm gave a web address, and I've been getting "not found" messages for every combination of the name I try. Linn's reported it was a .net address which seemed strange, I've been trying .net and .com, and with and without a hyphen in the name (dynasty-auctions/dynasty auctions) without success.

I guess being a "startup" they won't attract Gold Medal collections right off the bat.

They have just moved into their new office at North Point and I guess it will take a while to get everything in shape. If you need a sale catalog, call them at 3153 5542.

aethelwulf wrote:

Eric Casagrande wrote:For some reason, I had thought that collectors of China had always used the Ma catalogue.

ZurichAsia has been selling the new edition of Ma, a 2-volume affair and that only runs up to 1949.

Is Chan and Ma one and the same because I thought Zurich is selling Chan and I just ordered a set at USD90 (paperback).

enoch wrote:

aethelwulf wrote:

Eric Casagrande wrote:For some reason, I had thought that collectors of China had always used the Ma catalogue.

ZurichAsia has been selling the new edition of Ma, a 2-volume affair and that only runs up to 1949.

Is Chan and Ma one and the same because I thought Zurich is selling Chan and I just ordered a set at USD90 (paperback).

I must have had the names mixed up. Chan is, as you say, the one that ZurichAsia is selling. Its a 2-volume affair, either paperback, or hardcover in a slipcase. Not entirely comparable to the Yang PRC of course, as PRC is pretty straightforward, if you start collecting the unified country, and leave aside the "forerunners". Much of the Republic period is a 'mess' of overprints, not to mention all the various printings of the basic stamps, and I haven't set myself to tackling that yet...

HK auctions quote PRC material using the Yang catalogue, which itself is just using the numbers printed on the stamps themselves, the J, T, W etc. coding system.

rodi wrote:

Global Administrator wrote: I was selling these for $40 the pair .. are these NOT the most current?

For PRC, yes it's the most current one. For HK i don't know, i don't collect it.

The Hong Kong one is the most current one. Yang's didn't release one in 2010.