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Not often do I see anything that I've never handled before, but a 1926 Mongolia cover certainly qualifies! Indeed ANY Mongolia cover qualifies.

Can anyone read the Chinese (?) on the other side. Or even decipher where it is addressed to on the stamp side?

The only thing I can read is MANCHOW on the cancel .. but nothing for that spelling shows on Google?

Hopefully those that can decipher Asian languages might be able to add something to this cover.

The postmark is MANCHOULI (the "I" is on top of a stroke of the Chinese)

Correctly rated at 25 cents which was the rate to China.

I'll rummage around for my 'reference material' (the Mongolia pages from auction catalogues which to make space I sent the rest of which to recycling).

Posted from the capital, Ulaan Baatar (note cancel reads ULANBATOR), looks like 21 IV 26 to me. So nothing 'special' about the origin, ie. not a provincial city which would add some appeal.

As to destination, from wiki

Manzhouli (simplified Chinese: 满洲里; traditional Chinese: 滿洲里; pinyin: Mǎnzhōulǐ; Mongolian: Манжуур / Manǰuur, Russian: Маньчжу́рия / Маньчжоули́) is a city in Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region of the People's Republic of China (PRC).

In 1901, the China Far East Railway was completed in accordance with the Sino-Russian Secret Treaty of 1896, linking Siberia, Manchuria, and the Russian Far East. A settlement then formed around Manchzhuriya Station, the first stop within Manchuria for Russians. It was the beginning of the modern city of Manzhouli and the name of Manzhouli came from Russian Manchzhuriya (Маньчжурия i.e. Manchuria).

In 1905, Manzhouli was designated a trading center in the Sino-Japanese Treaty of 1905, greatly boosting Manzhouli's growth. In 1908 the Manzhouli customs was set up. Under the Republic of China, Manzhouli came under the jurisdiction of the province of Hsingan.

And just because I have too much spare time



Roughly sketched in,
red X is Manchouli (destination)
green dot is UB (origin)
blue is the borders of Mongolia (the country, as opposed to Inner Mongolia the Chinese province)

The writing on the stamp side looks like Russian.

To set the ball rolling here's some half-baked suggestions...

The last word looks like kontora (office?).

The word above it looks like the Russian for "Chinese".

The word before that looks like peredat whatever that means.

Runs anway and hides...

Great input so far .. many thanks!

Yes the UlanBator was the only thing I could make out except for China handstamp.

So was all this writing done by SENDER, or in transit for some reason?

Any idea what it says?

nigelc wrote:The writing on the stamp side looks like Russian.

Mongolian is usually written in Cyrillic.

Could you rotate the envelope clockwise? It would be easier to read.

I don't know Chinese, but I'll take a crack with my knowledge of Japanese.

All of the red stamps say the same thing: 通全徳記. A literal reading of these characters would be "letter-all-ethical-mark", so I believe them to be censor marks, though I have no idea why there are so many. The one in the lower left (when the text is right-side up) says Ulan Bator within the "censor mark".

All the black text on the cover was definitely written by the sender.

How is this?

The red rectangular chops seem to be applied by the sender because stamps were affixed over it.

I am interested to know was that Chinese censorship and why in 1926 as Mongolia was already established state with Russian support?

Great input -- many thanks.

I know ZERO about what is "normal" to see on these .. but unless I am mistaken these 2 red ones look like chops of a man or official with a pole over his shoulder?

nigelc wrote:The writing on the stamp side looks like Russian.

The last word looks like kontora (office?).

The word above it looks like the Russian for "Chinese".

The word before that looks like peredat whatever that means.

Background points about Mongolia:

The traditional Mongolian script was 'replaced' by Cyrillic by Soviet linguists when Mongolia was brought into the Soviet sphere (as was done with the alphabets of most of the Soviet republics, ie. Azeri in Azerbaijan).

Mongolia was the first Asian country to be a Communist state (1920s).

Given its geographic position, Mongolia has always had close ties with both China and Russia. The Golden Horde (not the eBay seller) were the Mongol princes who ruled the Russian parts of the Mongol empire, whilst Kublai Khan ruled from Beijing (the Middle East conquered lands were also handed over to relatives, and those Mongols ended up converting to Islam). When you're the ruler of the largest land empire in history,and email is 700 years away, its hard to exert your authority over everywhere from the centre.

The Russians set up a post office in Mongolia in ca. 1870s. The Chinese set one up early in the 20th century. The first stamps of Mongolia were in 1924, after the country was created.

A major figure involved in the 'creation' of the modern Mongolian state was a Russian:

Baron Roman Nikolai Maximilian von Ungern-Sternberg was a Baltic German-Russian Cossack Captain, who liberated Mongolia from Chinese occupation in February - March 1921.

An independent and brutal warlord in pursuit of pan-monarchist goals in Mongolia and territories east of Lake Baikal during the Russian Civil War that followed the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, von Ungern-Sternberg's goals included restoring the Russian monarchy under Michael Alexandrovich Romanov and the Great Mongol Empire, with Outer Mongolia under Bogd Khan as its part. Following his Asiatic Cavalry Division collapse in Mongolia, Ungern-Sternberg was left by his Russian officers and taken prisoner by Bolshevik's Red Army, was tried and executed.

from wikipedia (the Baron was quite a figure, and this rendering of history glosses over the pillaging and bloodshed that came with the "liberation".

So, Mongolian postal history straddles an interesting divide. There's different post offices operating, the alphabet changes, people are writing in Cyrillic so it looks like Russian but its Mongolian words, most commercial activity was with China (since Russia in much of the 1920s was hardly in a position to engage in trade).

Now, to the address.

Since its postmarked UB, the Cyrillic is the sender's address, the Chinese is the receiver's address in Manchouli, China (OK that's stating the obvious). I would say that probably all the Chinese black brushstrokes were written by the sender, AFAIK anyways.

The Cyrillic writing 'should' be Mongolian, however I've puttered at it trying to decipher and translate the words and haven't been coming up with anything.

Catalogues and reference literature generally don't bother trying to decipher/explain the details of the address, they just discuss the postal markings.

The red chopmarks are things like the name of the sender, a way of 'sealing' the letter. Chinese considered it very wrong to 'break the seal' on an envelope not addressed to you.

Red-band envelopes were the standard type of stationery for commercial correspondence, all the covers I have in my collection to China are such, and they are quite attractive IMO.

All-in-all, I'd say this piece is like most of the covers I've seen from this period--near-impossible to read anything on it unless you really want to struggle, and in the end you'll probably discover it boils down to being from one family-owned trading business to another.

Great Summary Athelwulf.

I like to think I can learn a new thing a day here, that I never knew before about stamps, and your post has several new things (to me) in it!

Great history background.

So these red chops that are UNDER the stamps are not postal or censor markings of any kind?

Can anyone translate what they say? What language are they in does anyone know?

I started writing my last reply and didn't post it until an hour later so some duplicate points or overlapping thoughts happening there.

Close-ups of the chops mentioned by cckerberos. I've added numbers 1-4 to match the characters. A reference book I looked at last night made mention of red seals with the city name.





The seals on the back, which are partially covered by the stamps, are in 'archaic characters', in other words ancient Chinese. Of no functional use in the 'modern' world, but they were learned by scholars and artists and used for traditional purposes such as seals.

Those red chops are personal or family names, very much similar to handstamps applied over lacquer as practised in Europe. The language is definitely chinese and looks like old script and somewhat stylised. Chinese everywhere still use some of this today to sign off letters and in its own right many are collectable antiques especially when they are made from jade. It is the Chinese equivalent to our modern day rubber stamps.

The Russian looks like "At Station Manchuria (Manchouli) pass on to Chinese post office."

I hope I can translate all Chinese characters on this cover to English language, but I can not, as some are enough scrawled to me, have to by "?".



From left to right, 3 lines:

Line 1 is the Return Address and the sender.

The Sender is "通全德记", the "通全德" is a name of a Shop/Company/Corporation, literal translation TONGQUANDE. The "记" is a word just like English language Shop/Company/Corporation, often following the Shop/Company Name.

The "库伦" is Kulun, i.e. Ulan Bator.

The Return Address is ? #8, ULAN BATOR, MONGOLIA.

Line 2 is the Addressee, also be a shop named "YONGQUANYU", looks like a jade shop.

Line 3 is the Addressee Address.

I can not understand it well, to summarize, at the downtown of ZHANGJIAKOU CITY, CHINA.

Below is the Scott 2008 for the Mongolia stamps:


About the postmark, the back one looks like April 21, 1926, Ulan Bator. The Chinese arrival postmark is May 6, Manzhouli, the year is not clear, but if it is 1926 it should be 廿六年 or 丙寅年，all not like the postmark showed.

Very interesting post, thanks for that.

I'm surprised to hear about that usage of 記...　it sounds like how 社 is used in Japanese. Is it still used that way?

You are welcome cckerberos . The è®° is no longer in current use this way, but still can be found.

A great help - many thanks stampway. 8)

How many stamp boards have folks who can read Chinese, Russian and Japanese I wonder?!

maptrekker wrote:The Russian looks like "At Station Manchuria (Manchouli) pass on to Chinese post office."

Great info too - that seems to tie in nicely with Athelwulf's map of Manchouli., with red X

stampway wrote:About the postmark, the back one looks like April 21, 1926, Ulan Bator. The Chinese arrival postmark is May 6, Manzhouli, the year is not clear, but if it is 1926 it should be 廿六年 or 丙寅年，all not like the postmark showed.

Maybe the UB postmark is 1928?

Could be either April 21, 1926 or 1928 I think. But far more likely a 6 I feel.

Stampway - what does the date on this one say in Chinese?

The Chinese date looks like 6 May and probably 26, definitely not 8.

admin wrote:

Could be either April 21, 1926 or 1928 I think. But far more likely a 6 I feel.

Stampway - what does the date on this one say in Chinese?

That may read as April 26, 1921. Similar Japanese cancels of the period go Year-Month-Day. I think the Chinese might have done the same.

The Chinese date is May 6... something. The year is the rightmost bit, which is unfortunately obscured by the writing. All that's clear is that it's a number between 10 and 19.

stampway can correct me on this, but I think if it were 1926 it would read 15 (十五), not 26 (廿六). This is because the year showed the number of years since the founding of the Republic of China in 1912, not the last two digits of the Gregorian calendar year. That would mean the date stamp showed sometime between 1921 and 1930.

After staring at the obscured numeral for the year long enough, I begin to think it might be a 四 - 'four', which would make the year 1925 ... To fit with a 1926 date, it would have to be 五. Can anyone make that out?

And speaking of numerals, could the top left character be 两 - 'Two'?

The destination Zhangjiakou (Pinyin) or Changchiakou (Wade-Giles) was also frequently known at the time as Kalgan.

cckerberos wrote:That may read as April 26, 1921.

Impossible as the stamps were issued in 1924.

The Chinese date is May 6... something. The year is the rightmost bit, which is unfortunately obscured by the writing. All that's clear is that it's a number between 10 and 19.

stampway can correct me on this, but I think if it were 1926 it would read 15 (十五), not 26 (廿六). This is because the year showed the number of years since the founding of the Republic of China in 1912, not the last two digits of the Gregorian calendar year. That would mean the date stamp showed sometime between 1921 and 1930.

You're correct on that point, except the ROC was founded in 1911, with the final Emperor, Puyi, (via Empress Cixi) finally abdicating in 1912. Baffled me when I visit Taiwan last year and saw that the postmark read '99' as the year, when I asked someone and they explained where the 99 came from (I thought it was the Chinese lunar calendar year ) all made sense.

I'm not seeing a 15 or a 26 (the Chinese characters for the numbers of course) in that smudgy obscured postmark. Could it be that each year was given a name? That was the system followed in Qing dynasty, I don't have an example at hand now, but I know that imperial jade seals usually include in their inscription a name for the year (going beyond even the Japanese system of counting from 1 again at the beginning of a new Emperor's reign, ie. "13th year of Taisho era").

cckerberos ,you are totally correct , that is Republic of China era, then no matter if the year is "十五" for 1926 or "十七" for 1928, it is in keeping with the postmark showed "十" which we can see.

tonymacg wrote:After staring at the obscured numeral for the year long enough, I begin to think it might be a 四 - 'four', which would make the year 1925 ... To fit with a 1926 date, it would have to be 五. Can anyone make that out?

And speaking of numerals, could the top left character be 两 - 'Two'?

The destination Zhangjiakou (Pinyin) or Changchiakou (Wade-Giles) was also frequently known at the time as Kalgan.

Further to my query about the date being a number or something else...browsing through past auction catalogues, I see that mail from China to a foreign destination features the date in the Gregorian calendar, whereas internal mail doesn't always; in some cases the name of the city is not even given in the postmark since, frankly, its internal mail, everyone could read the Chinese.

Case in point (lot 1174, Interasia's sale July 2010), described as "1932 (6 Apr.) envelope":



1932 - 1911/2 = 20 or 21...but the year isn't looking like that.

Kalgan comes up frequently in Mongolian postal history, either as a destination (major commercial centre near the border) or as a transit point (border town entrepot).

Here's another guess (thinking out loud here and throwing out possibilities). Could the lower character in the year be 年 ("year")? But what goes above it then? To me it looks like 大 (big) ... hmm, did they measure the year in terms of waxing and waning or somesuch, so the first half of the year was 'rising' ('getting bigger', remember there's no tenses in Chinese) and the second half the year 'falling' ('getting smaller': 小).

Sadly I sold off some literature on Chinese postal history that I had, thinking "I don't collect China right now, I can always get these later" ).

Some great info above folks.

So we know from the 2 cds markings it took about 2 weeks to get from Ulan Bator to the North East border post.

I guess there are no markings or notations to tell us the date of arrival at the destination - Zhangjiakou/Changchiakou/Kalgan.

There are a few short notations on front in Chinese .. so wondered if any are denoting arrival?

Hello aethelwulf,

Nice example your data showed, that "廿一年" is year 1932, same case as Glen's example.

aethelwulf wrote:You're correct on that point, except the ROC was founded in 1911, with the final Emperor, Puyi, (via Empress Cixi) finally abdicating in 1912. Baffled me when I visit Taiwan last year and saw that the postmark read '99' as the year, when I asked someone and they explained where the 99 came from (I thought it was the Chinese lunar calendar year ) all made sense.

Qing collapsed in 1911, but the government regarded the inauguration of Sun Yat-sen on January 1, 1912 as the formal establishment of the ROC. The calendar works off of that date, so 1912 is year 1 of the Minguo calendar.

I'm not seeing a 15 or a 26 (the Chinese characters for the numbers of course) in that smudgy obscured postmark. Could it be that each year was given a name? That was the system followed in Qing dynasty, I don't have an example at hand now, but I know that imperial jade seals usually include in their inscription a name for the year (going beyond even the Japanese system of counting from 1 again at the beginning of a new Emperor's reign, ie. "13th year of Taisho era").

The cancels sometime use the Chinese zodiac year (stampway mentioned 丙寅 above as the name for 1926). I'm not sure what part you're talking about, though? The year part of the circular cancel reads 十?年, with the middle character obscured.

aethelwulf wrote:1932 - 1911/2 = 20 or 21...but the year isn't looking like that.

Sure, it is
廿一 = 21

There are a few short notations on front in Chinese .. so wondered if any are denoting arrival?

If you mean the red signets, on the front are the sender's variform name badges, for the red signets on the back I do not know the characters on them.

stampway .. these were the notes I refer to -

Googling "Manchouli postmark" turned up an item in a Michael Rogers sale in 2005

http://www.michaelrogersinc.com/auction/results.asp?filename=A101&category=EJKM6

Lot 562: 1927 (Aug 28) Native cover Kulan origin in Mongolia, posted at Ulan Bator to Kalgan via Chita (Siberia) backstamped on front. Franked on reverse with scarce 25m/40m of 1930 (per Scott). Chinese postage, pair 4c Junks of 2nd Peking printing applied and postmarked at Manchouli.

Unfortunately the image of the item included on the page is atrocious and the postmark not really legible.

This Sunday Spink is having a sale in HK of Mongolia; the catalogue (with ambitious estimates) is on the Spink website, and will be at the viewing tomorrow. Online search found the catalouge listed on "AuctionNet" with at least one Manchouli-postmarked item.

Very interesting link Aethelwulf.

Surprised to see prices that high from 6 years back, especially given how strong the USD was then.

http://www.michaelrogersinc.com/auction/results.asp?filename=A101&category=EJKM6

My obvious question is, all those covers from Mongolia to China had postage dues added. Why?

And why does this one not .. all same era - and odder - many were added in Kalgan in Rogers sale.

stampway .. these were the notes I refer to -

Received the picture, the below one "抄" maybe meaning "transcription", the above one "四月永？？收到" ，two characters are not recognized by me, first 3 characters are uncertainty, last 2 characters "收到" mean "received", but to integrate previous posts, it looks like the "四月二十一日收到"i.e. "Received at April 21", same with the dater of Ulaanbaatar?

My obvious question is, all those covers from Mongolia to China had postage dues added. Why?

And why does this one not .. all same era - and odder - many were added in Kalgan in Rogers sale.

Also new knowledge to me, summary from internet, translation by my broken English:

Because China does not admit Mongolia's independence until 1945, so during the 1921 to 1945, the Mongolia stamps on the mails to China shall be regarded as invalid postage. Therefore the senders in addition to sticking on the Mongolian stamps must also advance stick China stamps on the mail. If the mail is without China stamps or insufficient China postage, then they will be postage due.

As Glen said, no China postage due on this cover - I can not find out why, lost stamps? No indication!

stampway - thank you - that translates perfectly. And makes perfect sense. 8)

Seeing all the other covers to China in this period in Rogers Auction have Dues on them, the one above is rather interesting.

There is no evidence at all now I have a close look at it, of a China Postage Due(s) falling off, or being peeled off .. nothing at all. Odd.

I am listing it up for sale on my Rarity Page this week, and had no real idea about this one, as I've never had a Mongolia cover before!

Great info here, that tells an interesting tale about a humble cover from 1926!

I have learned a great deal on this area of stamps, and thanks so much for all those adding to the story.

Glen

Totally overlooked the detail about the postage due. The only cover I have with Mongolia's own stamps is to Russia; the covers I have to China are all from the 1910s.

A couple examples from the last Interasia sale:

Lot 2259: Mongolia: Republic, Ulanbator, 1926 (18 Aug.) native envelope (opened out for display) to China bearing on reverse 1924 perf. 10 2c. strip of three and 1926 fiscal stamps handstamped framed "Postage" in violet 10c. (2), cancelled by "Ulanbator Mongolia" double-ring d.s., with "Manchouli" bilingual c.d.s. on front, fine, overpaid by 1 cent and unusually without China Postage Dues.

(emphasis in red mine)

And an example of the 'normal practice' for this period

Lot 2261: Mongolia:Republic, Ulanbator, 1928 (1 May) red-band envelope to Kalgan (19.6) bearing on reverse 25m. (slight creasing), cancelled by "Ulanbator Mongolia" c.d.s., and on front China Junk 4c. applied as postage due and cancelled by "Peking" bilingual c.d.s. (18.6)

Interesting covers Aethelwulf.

The forthcoming Spink HK sale of Meiso Mizuhara's Mongolia classics Jan 23 has this -

https://www.spink.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=11005+++1590+&refno=11581827&saletype=

Which is similar to mine, also to Kalgan via Manchouli. But their est is $7,000-$9,000, not my planned measly few $100!

The Postage Due in China was collected via a T (Tax) Boxed handstamp on this one -

aethelwulf，great contrast examples and the previous link above, yes looks we are all learning more today.

Regarding the Spink item you illustrate Glen, a couple things about that

1) It was sent from Altan Bulak, a provincial city ('city' is used liberally here, as until the modernization drive in the 1930s UB was the only settlement of any significant size in Mongolia, and even that was moderate in population, the Mongols of course being famous nomads).

2) It is a double-rate cover.

Added to that, when I first browsed through the Spink catalogue a week or two ago I was struck by the fact that their estimates all seem quite high. Items similar to ones that I have won at $1,600HKD hammer they are putting low estimates of $3,000 on.

Then there is the plethora of items at $60, 80, even 100,000 (divide by 7 or 8 to get AUD/USD equivalents).

I'll be at the sale on Sunday, will be interesting to see what happens. There's also a major wine auction being conducted by an American firm this weekend, maybe that will pull away some collectors and bidding will be less fierce.

aethelwulf wrote:
I'll be at the sale on Sunday, will be interesting to see what happens.

Please fill us in .. Mongolia stamps seem to be a newly popular area these days!

Very interesting cover. Nice focus on the fact there are no Chinese stamps.

admin wrote:

Glen's query about what these handstamps represent wasn't responded to I believe.

After looking at 150 lots of Mongolia today, 90% covers, I saw this handstamp repeated in the corners of many pieces. As my reading ability of Chinese doesn't extend much beyond 1-10, I'm guessing that these are somehow commercially-related, something auspicious maybe ('bringing good fortune' etc).

In both Glen's examples and the cover you linked to, the scroll the man is holding has the name of the sender written on it.