POLL - what is a fair price to pay for this cover?

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 05 Jun 2013 19:06

Take a look at the 1d Red KGV envelope illustrated above.

Standard size, untidily cancelled 2d KGV, to a Chemist in Sydney from a large drug company in Sydney.

Postmark is common and adds zero to price.

The “20 posted” violet handstamp is merely an accounting/charging marking by Sydney GPO, showing 20 of the same items was in the rubber band bundle, and is of no consequence to value.

The exact 1d Red you see here had about 50,000 impressions made on company envelopes of all kinds.

If you saw this in a club approval book, or on ebay, or a dealer $5 box, would you buy it?

Well the truth is I would not have looked twice at it, if it turned up in an estate lot here.

Vote quickly and usual rules - any posts that reveal the answer, will see poster shot at Dawn, and then starved to death, in that exact order.

fromdownunder · Post by **fromdownunder** » 05 Jun 2013 19:12

If it turned up in a junk lot, it would finish in my "stuff I don't collect" cover box. I would not buy it at all.

Norm

jrg · Post by **jrg** » 05 Jun 2013 19:22

I'd pay a dollar, because I collect postal history, but it isn't a real stamp, is it?

mcgooley · Post by **mcgooley** » 05 Jun 2013 21:13

Oh, b*gger. Just threw away my money

Lakatoi 4 · Post by **Lakatoi 4** » 05 Jun 2013 21:35

Nice commercial usage but on the surface of it that's all I can see that might make it a bit above the average. I'd pay about $5 for it in a dealers box at a stamp fare but that would be it.

Still if it has something unusual about it, it might be worth a tad more. So say around $300 is my guess. Since the choice is between $250 and $500 in the choice list I'll pick the $500 spot.

jjarmstrong47 · Post by **jjarmstrong47** » 05 Jun 2013 21:42

I think a dollar would be a fair price to pay for it so that is my vote but I guess there must be a lot more to it than meets the eye. Otherwise why would Glen bother to post it. I'll be interested to see where this goes.

aethelwulf · Post by **aethelwulf** » 05 Jun 2013 21:43

Now that the ACSC postal stationery catalogue is out, there's probably a bucketload of these ordinary-looking things that are actually worth a fortune.

If I saw it for $5 I'd take it, hoping that a look in the catalogue would reveal a healthy profit, so I'll guess higher for the "real price".

Micky · Post by **Micky** » 05 Jun 2013 22:51

I chose $2500, as I know nothing about anything

I'd go with a high price only because I think the very light embossing below the written word Mr. maybe it's part of the cover.

Who knows

Micky

Princestamps · Post by **Princestamps** » 05 Jun 2013 23:14

I chose $100, as these these threads have a habit of showing innocuous near worthless items that turn out to be rare varieties or flaws or something else worth thousands. But then again it may be a common letter posted just to get people thinking theres something bizarre about it.

I got a bit suspicious about the purple word "SO (?) POSTED" top left, maybe they never payed or the letter was stuffed with cocaine because it has Drug supplies in the address and maybe someone is sending some free narcotics in the post.

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 05 Jun 2013 23:17

I think $1 is fair

Based on previous similar "guess the price" threads results, I'd say this cover is, however, worth significantly more than $1

Allanswood · Post by **Allanswood** » 06 Jun 2013 00:07

I went with $7500 as a gut feel.

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 06 Jun 2013 00:07

Micky wrote:I chose $2500, as I know nothing about anything I'd go with a high price only because I think the very light embossing below the written word Mr. maybe it's part of the cover.

Who knows

Micky

That is just the diagonal of the reverse flap showing thru and has no relevance.

Neither does the "20 Posted" audit note that princestamps did not bother to read about in post #1, where that is specifically mentioned.

The 1d red impression is exactly the same as all the other 49,000 done! No tricks there either

gugusg · Post by **gugusg** » 06 Jun 2013 00:15

Maybe an early use of this kind of cover ? Dunno how much it is but with new catalog maybe a high value

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 06 Jun 2013 00:25

gugusg wrote:
Maybe an early use of this kind of cover ?

Good guess but no ... it you found one used a month or two later it will be worth about the same.

gugusg · Post by **gugusg** » 06 Jun 2013 00:38

Ok, so if we are on the guess, is it about the cancel, the cover, this cancel on this cover or other things ?

Wolfgang · Post by **Wolfgang** » 06 Jun 2013 00:48

Global Administrator wrote:

If you saw this in a club approval book, or on ebay, or a dealer $5 box, would you buy it?

In the 5$ box I would buy 10 of it - if available!

fossick · Post by **fossick** » 06 Jun 2013 01:04

Yes I would buy it if I saw it in a $5 box.

And very quickly I might add.

I think it would be around the $7500 mark.

Regards

John G

Frank_King · Post by **Frank_King** » 06 Jun 2013 01:11

If I saw this in a $1 box, I would probably look at it, and put it back.

But I must be very wrong, so I look forward to the correct answer.

Machaggis52 · Post by **Machaggis52** » 06 Jun 2013 01:22

OK.

It is not the stamp impression, it is not the date of use, it is not the cancellation, it is not the addressee, it is not the '20 posted' mark and I'm pretty sure it is not the return address.

If I saw it on EBay, I wouldn't give it a second glance, yet, there may be something unusual about it. Nope. I give up.

true · Post by **true** » 06 Jun 2013 01:26

Not sure how much it worth, but I will pay no more than 2 dollars

Berlin-Gus · Post by **Berlin-Gus** » 06 Jun 2013 01:52

Well it looks like it should belong in the bargoon box, but then on the other hand was this ever issued? It shows "POSTAGE" under the king's bust and I don't think the 1d envelope was issued that way.

Maybe that bargoon is worth a $1000. Who knows. A bargoon can sometimes be a fabulous find.

Post by **gavin-h** » 06 Jun 2013 06:01

Global Administrator wrote:The exact 1d Red you see here had about 50,000 impressions made on company envelopes of all kinds.

I've gone for $5000 based on this statement. 50,000 seems a tiny amount for a 1d impression in the 1920s - there must have been MILLIONS of postal stationery items per month.

Norbert Jenkins · Post by **Norbert Jenkins** » 06 Jun 2013 06:06

I voted $A5 million, but only on the assumption that the contents were included. Hopefully the sheriff won't shoot me for saying its the place that Mr DuPont hid his 'British Guiana 1c magenta' in

Seasprite · Post by **Seasprite** » 06 Jun 2013 07:51

I would say the value might have something to do with the date of the cancel being 1922.
I think the Postage rate in 1922 was 2d. The postage rate rose by 1/2d by a war tax and another 1/2d between 1918 when the 1d red was released and 1922 when this envelope was used.
I stand to be correct as I am no expert on postage rates.

aethelwulf · Post by **aethelwulf** » 06 Jun 2013 17:01

Of course the thread title asks "what is a fair price to pay"...maybe this was an eBay sale that went to a Bunny for 10x reality.

Post by **GlenStephens** » 06 Jun 2013 17:03

aethelwulf wrote:Of course the thread title asks "what is a fair price to pay"...maybe this was an eBay sale that went to a Bunny for 10x reality.

Good point.

The cover I illustrate sold at a real stamp auction.

No ebay Bunnies involved.

Territorian · Post by **Territorian** » 06 Jun 2013 23:07

I would pay $10 for this cover, but I know that I'm way off on the auction realisation!

hutch · Post by **hutch** » 07 Jun 2013 00:02

I went for $1,000.00. Not sure why, but it was something I liked the look of...even though I would never pay that much for it.

Would rather see it in the $5.00 bin...then I'd buy it!!!

hutch

Aladdin · Post by **Aladdin** » 07 Jun 2013 01:36

In his first sentence, Glen calls it a "1d red KGV", and in his second sentence he calls it a "2d KGV." That kind of dual-value must be worth something. $50.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 07 Jun 2013 01:59

Maybe $5 if I was just browsing through a box, to be honest. But I feel there's something up about this one, I feel it in me bones, so voted $100.

Is it just me or is there some colour differentiation on the paper to the left? Just old-age-toning? Then again, if its a chemist then maybe he spilt something on it. There's also something written there, though can't make it out - maybe erased from pencil? ...Now that I mention - what is that word??

What about the one penny postage itself - correct postage? This is just a regular sized envelope, yes, so probably only a receipt for wholesale goods.

It's obviously not this chap, a German serial killer who died in 1922: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gro%C3%9Fmann

A chemist in Paramatta, suffered illness in 1906, but died much later I think though.
Maybe I'm deconstructing this one far too much

Norbert Jenkins · Post by **Norbert Jenkins** » 07 Jun 2013 02:15

Catweazle wrote:There's also something written there, though can't make it out - maybe erased from pencil? ...Now that I mention - what is that word??

Retro reveal shows the word up rather nicely

I won't spoil the fun by letting you know what used to be written there...

quicksingle · Post by **quicksingle** » 07 Jun 2013 02:19

If I had the money $100000,
Because I've seen 1d Star with postage added.
And PTPO to boot.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 07 Jun 2013 02:21

Norbert Jenkins wrote: Retro reveal shows the word up rather nicely I won't spoil the fun by letting you know what used to be written there...

Aaw... well what the heck is "retro reveal" anyway?

aethelwulf · Post by **aethelwulf** » 07 Jun 2013 02:42

I'm missing something...there's only the "20 posted" handstamp for me.

Norbert Jenkins · Post by **Norbert Jenkins** » 07 Jun 2013 02:52

Catweazle wrote:
Norbert Jenkins wrote: Retro reveal shows the word up rather nice I won't spoil the fun by letting you know what used to be written there...
Aaw... well what the heck is "retro reveal" anyway?

Sorry, thought it was a commonly known thing!

retroReveal (as is the official capitalisation), is a handy website that allows you to analyse an image and see things that are somewhat 'hidden'. It does this sort of automatically for you, using some clever colour space transformation jiggery pokery (so they claim anyway. Personally, I think they have a witch connected to their website).

You can use it to see better, for example, a cancellation mark on a dark stamp, or something that has been erased, or spot thins and hinge remainders from a scan of the back of the stamp. Sounds like made-up CSI voodoo computer magic, but it actually works!

You can search these boards to read more (several here use it), or take a look yourself: http://retroReveal.org

It's all free too - give it a go, it's a handy tool to have in the armoury!

bazza4338 · Post by **bazza4338** » 07 Jun 2013 08:10

aethelwulf wrote:I'm missing something...there's only the "20 posted" handstamp for me.

Is this it?

Princestamps · Post by **Princestamps** » 07 Jun 2013 10:31

Global Administrator wrote:
Micky wrote:I chose $2500, as I know nothing about anything I'd go with a high price only because I think the very light embossing below the written word Mr. maybe it's part of the cover.

Who knows

Micky
That is just the diagonal of the reverse flap showing thru and has no relevance.

Neither does the "20 Posted" audit note that princestamps did not bother to read about in post #1, where that is specifically mentioned.

The 1d red impression is exactly the same as all the other 49,000 done! No tricks there either

Sorry I missed it, and when I did read it, It was too late, this one hour edit rule meant I could not change.

Plus I was guessing anyway, I have very little interest in Australian Postal stationery. Why don't you reveal the price already, its been 2 days now.

ivqii · Post by **ivqii** » 07 Jun 2013 16:08

I guessed $50

My first thought , having regard to all Glen's discounts , was the addressee. Google discloses he on the face of it was a person of no particular interest - maybe a Masonic connection?

Is the cancel an experimental machine never put into use maybe? ( Certainly doesn't look like it but you never know )

Been driving me mad this one

Post by **GlenStephens** » 07 Jun 2013 16:43

ivqii wrote:I guessed $50

My first thought , having regard to all Glen's discounts , was the addressee. Google discloses he on the face of it was a person of no particular interest - maybe a Masonic connection? Good and prident guess, but no. If it were addressed to you price is the same!

Is the cancel an experimental machine never put into use maybe? ( Certainly doesn't look like it but you never know ) Another good guess, as some early roller cancels are pricey. This one is bog standard, and worth 10c on its own.

Been driving me mad this one

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 07 Jun 2013 16:46

I can't wait to know what it sold for! These threads are always fun.

fromdownunder · Post by **fromdownunder** » 07 Jun 2013 17:16

I would guess at this point in the discussion is that it was an envelope privately commissioned from the sender, with the return address, for mail outs, and printed by AP. for a specific order, or perhaps approved by AP and privately printed?. And not many have survived?

Norm

gugusg · Post by **gugusg** » 07 Jun 2013 17:29

I guess according to comments, it is the "postage" added under the embossing that makes the price

Allanswood · Post by **Allanswood** » 07 Jun 2013 18:13

Everything about this cover can be perfectly normal, except that it may be the only one known.
Everything about this cover could also be perfectly normal and it might be one of thousands and so worth a dollar.

I still have no idea, I haven't tried to track its details down.

Perhaps the imprint of the stamp should have been in green and not red.

aethelwulf · Post by **aethelwulf** » 07 Jun 2013 18:19

Allanswood wrote:Perhaps the imprint of the stamp should have been in green and not red.

Makes sense for a 1d imprint to be red, to match the 1d red 'Roo. Or maybe I'm being too logical.

Post by **GlenStephens** » 07 Jun 2013 18:20

fromdownunder wrote:I would guess at this point in the discussion is that it was an envelope privately commissioned from the sender, with the return address, for mail outs, and printed by AP. for a specific order, or perhaps approved by AP and privately printed?. And not many have survived?

Norm

Norm this was one of approx 50,000 envelopes that companies handed over to the PO to have this exact 1d Red stamp impression added.

That was normal practice for business back in the 20s/30s, as meter mail was not yet up and running.

Get 2000 envelopes of yours impressed and it saved a lot of time in mail-out of invoices etc. I am not sure if there was a fee .. I recall for 1000 or so minimum there was NOT. You paid 1000 lots of 1d to PO, and you were fully prepaid.

1d, 1½ and 3d are pretty often seen. In a wide range of colours. Often they are on window faced, but 10,000s were not.

mcgooley · Post by **mcgooley** » 07 Jun 2013 18:22

GlenStephens wrote:1d, 1½ and 3d are pretty often seen.

Not this one.

Post by **GlenStephens** » 07 Jun 2013 19:04

GlenStephens wrote:
fromdownunder wrote:I would guess at this point in the discussion is that it was an envelope privately commissioned from the sender, with the return address, for mail outs, and printed by AP. for a specific order, or perhaps approved by AP and privately printed?. And not many have survived?

Norm
Norm this was one of approx 50,000 envelopes that companies handed over to the PO to have this exact 1d Red stamp impression added.

That was normal practice for business back in the 20s/30s, as meter mail was not yet up and running.

Get 2000 envelopes of yours impressed and it saved a lot of time in mail-out of invoices etc. I am not sure if there was a fee .. I recall for 1000 or so minimum there was NOT. You paid 1000 lots of 1d to PO, and you were fully prepaid.

1d, 1½ and 3d are pretty often seen. In a wide range of colours. Often they are on window faced, but 10,000s were not.

Any size envelope was OK to submit.

This one is a long type, and is worth the same kind of money as the cover in post #1.

Aladdin · Post by **Aladdin** » 07 Jun 2013 19:11

Using the RetroReveal secret as a hint, with help from a cobwebbed old Stampboards thread (find it yourself

) I think I am onto it. I have been completely unable to Google up any other example that combines certain specific characteristics that this envelope displays.

As to value, I would probably need a recent publication that this quiz is probably a sales pitch for.

I won't burst the balloon. But I have learned something today. Thanks Glen!

quicksingle · Post by **quicksingle** » 07 Jun 2013 20:51

Found the original sale.

Very interesting,but i think what made then will be double now.

The clue is in the 20 posted cachet.

Going now before Glen shoots me

fromdownunder · Post by **fromdownunder** » 07 Jun 2013 21:02

quicksingle wrote:Going now before Glen shoots me

I think that this thread is turning around to the point of holding a gun at Glen and demanding an answer.

Norm

What is a fair price to pay for this cover?