Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquidation

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 15 Jan 2016 19:05

Hi, not sure where to post this, but maybe someone can help me out.

Over 12 months ago I consigned a large specialized stamp collection to a major Sydney stamp auction house, all lots were sold, now the dealer is stalling with payment of over $5000.

They have made a part payment an lots of promises to pay the rest, it's now got to the stage where I may have to get a legal opinion.

Advice welcome, can I name the dealer.?

aethelwulf · Post by **aethelwulf** » 15 Jan 2016 19:14

Did the winning bidders pay? If the auction house didn't collect from the buyers, that might be why they haven't settled with you the seller.

traralgon3844 · Post by **traralgon3844** » 15 Jan 2016 19:16

That can depend on when the lots were sold.

Consigned over 12 months ago, but when was the auction?

How long do their buyers have to make payments, auction houses can regularly hold payments for a couple of months.

There are a number of variables here and more detail is required before anyone can comment.

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 15 Jan 2016 19:21

Harri wrote:Over 12 months ago I consigned

Please supply more details.

Don't assume that if you send a collection to auction on say February 15, that it will appear in the March auction. It may not be auctioned for 9-12 months after you have sent it in. Some auction houses have large backlogs.

Sounds like they may have cash flow issues.

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 15 Jan 2016 19:35

traralgon3844 wrote:That can depend on when the lots were sold.

Consigned over 12 months ago, but when was the auction?

The lots were sold in may- July, I have no way of knowing if the lots were paid for, but I assume they were, as the dealer has acknowledged and advised in writing without any disclosures, that he still owes me $5800, with $3000, he paid by cheque with a promise to pay the balance in a week from early Dec. If they have cash flow problems, it's a bit of concern for all vendors.

How long do their buyers have to make payments, auction houses can regularly hold payments for a couple of months.

There are a number of variables here and more detail is required before anyone can comment.

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 15 Jan 2016 19:51

You can and should name who has allegedly not paid you, or the other Sydney auctions who presumably do pay on time, are tarred with the same brush, due to your very vague heading and even vaguer allegations.

Please do so ASAP.

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 15 Jan 2016 20:05

traralgon3844 wrote:That can depend on when the lots were sold.

I have been dealing with Stanley Gibbons since 1978, they made the change to Velvet collectables, I have not had any problems until recently, they have the same auctioneer,

Consigned over 12 months ago, but when was the auction?

How long do their buyers have to make payments, auction houses can regularly hold payments for a couple of months.

There are a number of variables here and more detail is required before anyone can comment.

'
I really need some advice about collecting this unpaid debt, Do I approach the auctioneers ass, Or Philatelic trader or both.? I've never come up against this before, as a pensioner living in central Tasmania, the legal system will rip out most of what's owing, not a great reward for 25 years of building up a decent collection of Aust GV.

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 15 Jan 2016 20:16

Well only you know the full details of the correspondence.

As is often said - there are 2 sides to every story. 8)

Danny Jurd owner of Velvet Auctions is a member here, and was a recent President of APTA as I recall, and is their current APTA Treasurer, so feel sure any monies owed will be paid in a timely manner, if APTA get involved.

You have not bothered to tell us a single thing about this alleged consignment.

Something consigned in July 2015 to ANY large auction would probably make a late year auction. Maybe an early 2016 one. Which is why so many folks mail things to me for a same day cash offer and payment, and dodge the endless raft of fees, as it saves 6 months of waiting, and uncertainty, but I digress.

You seem to be saying the SALE was July. Again if often faked. or often mid-ID'd material was offered by you, Certs being issued can and do take months.

If you had better items that the buyer or Auction sent off for Certificates that adds more delays, as vendors are not paid until the Certs are issued - of course. But again you have not bothered to share that kind of info.

Even so, the delay for Certs is generally only a few months.

Glen

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 15 Jan 2016 20:22

Global Administrator wrote:Danny Jurd from Velvet Auctions is a member here

And Danny Jurd is the current Federal Treasurer of APTA - The Australasian Philatelic Traders Association.

gugusg · Post by **gugusg** » 15 Jan 2016 20:28

He said the lot were sold in May//July (a link to the item should help us to understand the facts

)

alltorque · Post by **alltorque** » 15 Jan 2016 20:31

Knowing that all the lots sold tells you when the auction was...So how long is it since the auction finished ?

I have sent material to an auction house in NSW and received payment approx. 4 months after the auction.

The material was sent to them approx 4 months before it was listed so there can be delays.

cheers

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 15 Jan 2016 20:39

gugusg wrote:
He said the lot were sold in May//July (a link to the item should help us to understand the facts )

Sadly, Velvet are one of those very annoying auctions that do not archive past auctions, for reasons known only to themselves.

Lakatoi 4 · Post by **Lakatoi 4** » 15 Jan 2016 20:48

Items sold in May-July with a promise to pay the residual by December is very late payment for any auction house.

However, if such late payment was a general problem with any auction house in Australia over a period of time then it would circulate within the philatelic dealers and community here pretty quickly.

Bad news travels fast as they say and I personally haven't heard any whispers of this, has anyone

joelk · Post by **joelk** » 15 Jan 2016 21:10

I agree with Tony. I think the crucial piece of information is when the items were auctioned off.

The Auction House must have terms of payment to the sellers.

Typically, they should pay within maximum two or three months of the auction.

What should count is that the auction took place, the goods were sold and the time elapsed since the auction was reasonable or within the specified terms of payments of the Auction House.

Then the Auction House is bound by the contract with the seller and must pay.

Best Regards,
Joel.

Post by **gavin-h** » 15 Jan 2016 21:11

Harri wrote:The lots were sold in may- July, I have no way of knowing if the lots were paid for, but I assume they were, as the dealer has acknowledged and advised in writing without any disclosures, that he still owes me $5800, with $3000, he paid by cheque with a promise to pay the balance in a week from early Dec.

I suspect (without any further knowledge) that this is an incorrect assumption.

The dealer acknowledges that he owes you the money, but he does not say he has that money. Most likely, he is still awaiting (and probably chasing) that payment, but isn't telling you that, presumably for reasons of "confidentiality", which everyone seems to use to cover everything these days...

Have you asked him these direct questions? "WHY haven't you paid me? Is it because the vendor has not paid you? If not, why not? What are you doing to expedite my payment?"

gugusg · Post by **gugusg** » 15 Jan 2016 21:30

That's a good point also: does that concern the seller if the auction have issue to get money ?

You give your items to auction house, it is sold, they have to pay you. The issue between auction house and final client does not concern you from my point of view ... (that's why we are paying 15/25% of premium to action house !

)

Lakatoi 4 · Post by **Lakatoi 4** » 17 Jan 2016 08:21

Gugusg,

You will find that legally the auction house is only selling your material for you, you haven't sold it to them so they can then sell it at auction.

So title doesn't pass to the buyer at an auction until they pay the auction house in full. Until they are fully paid, they can't pay you.

If any of your items are unsold, the usual procedure is for the auction house to lot them up into the next auction at a slightly lower reserve price. The auction house will send you a summary of the reduced lots for your agreement. It is up to you to either agree with that or not.

Normally if still unsold in a couple of auctions, the auction house will ask if you want them to be auctioned again or sent back to you. Some auction houses have lotting fees so each time they are listed for auction you have to pay those.

gugusg · Post by **gugusg** » 17 Jan 2016 08:55

I'm ok with you if it is unsold.

But if it is sold, you should be paid, from my point of view it is auction's issue to check solvability of bidders.

But I may be wrong I never sold through actions ...

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 17 Jan 2016 08:58

Tassie Stamps,

do you know if the buyer requested an extension.

David B.

dooby · Post by **dooby** » 17 Jan 2016 09:35

More Info needed or this is "Going No Where"

To qualify your question

Please scan post the terms and conditions of the contract you signed removing identifying your personal details.( Remove Auction House details if you are uncomfortable)

Secondly the question you asked can be taken either way depending on the "terms and conditions".

Thirdly post your replies from the Auction House if its not in writing its probably not of any use.

Can you claim a percentage of the deposit if the terms and conditions have been broken.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 17 Jan 2016 15:53

Something in the story doesn't make sense.

The average sale of a Velvet Collectables Auction is around $ 400,000. If there was an amount of $ 4,000 not paid then it could easily be obtained from later sales to pay off an earlier non payment.

To me it sounds like the amount is being withheld because items in the original sale were sold with Extensions applied which means that the buyer has paid but the seller has had the funds withheld by the Auction House because if the items receive a negative certificate then the buyer is refunded his payment and the items are returned to the vendor.

Sometimes there are long delays getting a certificate.

David B.

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 17 Jan 2016 16:43

I posted all that ages back.

Only this mysterious "Harri" know what the heck the actual story is, and clearly he is ignoring this thread, and not adding any relevant detail.

Global Administrator wrote:
You seem to be saying the SALE was July. Again if often faked. or often mid-ID'd material was offered by you, Certs being issued can and do take months.

If you had better items that the buyer or Auction sent off for Certificates that adds more delays, as vendors are not paid until the Certs are issued - of course. But again you have not bothered to share that kind of info.

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 17 Jan 2016 19:28

Global Administrator wrote:I posted all that ages back.

Only this mysterious "Harri" know what the heck the actual story is, and clearly he is ignoring this thread, and not adding any relevant detail.

That quite a blatant assumption, I don't make things up. I have been a collector since age 8, I recently decided to sell off part of my collection as it's become a bit much, I also collect postmarks and Roo's.

I consigned to this dealer because they had a good past track record.

With not knowing if there were any extensions, or any other extenuating circumstances, I am left in the dark as t his dealer has not, NOT divulged any relevant information to me, apart of what is owed. so, I have to scrabble thru the post auction results to ascertain my sales etc.

I consider myself a reasonable person, if the dealer had rung me back to discuss any problems with me, in that time, we may have had a better realisation , but he ignored me.

It, not easy in this part of Tasmania, there is no cell ph coverage and internet is not good. I do apprieate the part payment they made, and the promise to make a final payment, but with no explanation.

I am not a happy camper.

Global Administrator wrote:
You seem to be saying the SALE was July. Again if often faked. or often mid-ID'd material was offered by you, Certs being issued can and do take months.

If you had better items that the buyer or Auction sent off for Certificates that adds more delays, as vendors are not paid until the Certs are issued - of course. But again you have not bothered to share that kind of info.

Danny Jurd · Post by **Danny Jurd** » 18 Jan 2016 12:31

All the best to all for 2016. Firstly the matter, and any outstanding amounts has now been resolved.

Post allowed, It is true the matter did drag on for longer than we all would have hoped it would. As a bit of background, as some may not be aware. The general workings of an Auction house is/are you act as agent, sell, extract commission and remit balance of funds.

Sometimes this can be delayed by a number of factors. Some of which were mentioned in the conversation thread.

I don’t wish to go into specific details here for reasons of privacy, although that may seem somewhat ironic at this junction.

Suffice to say it was a combination of these factors that impacted on the matter.

BigSaint · Post by **BigSaint** » 19 Jan 2016 08:22

Harri wrote:I consider myself a reasonable person, if the dealer had rung me back to discuss any problems with me, in that time, we may have had a better realisation , but he ignored me.

It, not easy in this part of Tasmania, there is no cell phone coverage and internet is not good.

And how many times did you ring

I always knew that cable put there 80 years ago was to stop that place floating away

Brad

RodT · Post by **RodT** » 19 Jan 2016 09:15

Nice to see Harri finally got his monies.

Pity it took a big jolt from Stampboards to get Velvet collectables to cough up.

The poor 'privacy' excuse from Danny doesn't wash.

Looks like he needs a PR refresher course.

Allanswood · Post by **Allanswood** » 19 Jan 2016 11:12

I think there is far to much assumption on this thread and not much fair to both sides substance to warrant dishing on the auction house.

There are multiple parties involved here and not all have had a say, nor I imagine will they. Seller, auction, x buyers of lots, etc.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 15 Mar 2016 17:40

I have been advised Velvet Collectables is in liquidation by liquidator Brendan Copeland. They owe me more thann $40,000.

here is a new contact regarding matters to do with this company it is Brendan Copeland of William Buck at:
[email protected]

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 15 Mar 2016 17:55

Oh dear.

Last auction was only held 2 days ago.

mcgooley · Post by **mcgooley** » 15 Mar 2016 18:01

This new information might place the saga in a different light

Allanswood · Post by **Allanswood** » 15 Mar 2016 18:07

If that's the case, there should not have been a auction 2 days ago!

You would not want to be either a buyer or seller. Although at least as a buyer - don't pay, but what if you just consigned some lots for auction?

Curious and strange.

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 15 Mar 2016 18:53

Sad to hear this today.

There is usually only one winner out of these things. The Liquidators.

Their obscene fees usually gobble up the vast bulk of any equity.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 15 Mar 2016 18:59

I spoke with the auditor and as its now a legal matter, there is a lot I can't say on here but APTA mediated an arrangement with him to start paying me the backlog from Feb 29 .... that cheque will now bounce .... I may get nowt

It is NOT a good look ... how many other vendors have been delayed....and yes while this was building up lots from vendors were being accepted for the March sale....I have a word for that.

I had tons of good Paraguay collections, someone some superb Latvia etc .... if it was paid for on Sunday or Monday or Tuesday up to the liquidation strike time the payment goes into the unsecured pool. Bad, bad, bad...

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 15 Mar 2016 19:01

As a journo I have advised the Sydney Morning Herald....they may not have heard yet otherwise.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 15 Mar 2016 19:07

I raised the issue with APTA by email and written insured letter between Feb 9 and 16 and in one paragraph said:

rs <[email protected]>

Feb 16

to APTA

Extract:

My lawyer is of the view that as he cannot clear this debt immediately there are issues of cashflow and potential receivership/liquidation in the worst-case scenario, as there is a question of how many others may be awaiting payments. How deep is the problem?

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 15 Mar 2016 19:16

It was Harri's case that confirmed my worst suspicions....I spotted it online. all the privacy crap.

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 15 Mar 2016 19:36

Paul Peters wrote:I raised the issue with APTA

Interestingly, the treasurer of APTA is Danny Jurd. (Velvet owner)

I too, had a 'misunderstanding' with an APTA member and requested assistance from APTA in asking that member to adhere to the APTA member code of ethics.

APTA were disinterested and unwilling to assist with the matter, so don't assume they'll be of any assistance to you.

I would sure hate to be a vendor in a March 13 auction, when on March 15 there is a "Notification of Resolution Winding Up the Company" form 205M lodged with ASIC.... No prices realised posted online yet, so I do wonder how the auction went, and if buyers in it will receive their goods...

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 15 Mar 2016 19:43

APTA tried to work out a plan with him....to pay me... It didn't work. I have supplied the liquidator with emails and evidence in the case. It is a bad look....

Allanswood · Post by **Allanswood** » 15 Mar 2016 19:45

Aren't these the results Tassie?

http://www.stamp-auction.com.au/auctions/past_auction_listing_prices.html

3 PDF's - Pre, sale and unsolds.

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 15 Mar 2016 19:46

Allanswood wrote:Aren't these the results Tassie?

Thank you, Greg, missed it.

The owner and staff of Velvet are all very experienced and have been in the industry a long time, so this news does surprise me. I had a few dealings with them and was quite happy.

Rod Perry · Post by **Rod Perry** » 15 Mar 2016 20:07

The demise of a Philatelic Auction house is bad news, particularly in a small philatelic pond, such as Australia . . . and not just for the participants, be they vendor or buyer, and the proprietor.

Why? The potential outlet for vendors constricts, the reservoir of supply for buyers diminishes . . . and be mindful of staff and management trauma.

Oh, and competition evaporates.

Much attention, on this and other media, has been expended upon auction costs, be they for selling or buying participants.

For those who saw the Auction houses as "greedy", take heed, and I'll bet a tenner to a grand, the most vocal are generally the most useless in terms of participation.

To those, remember: the grass is greener only over the septic tank.

Rod

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 15 Mar 2016 20:16

ROD is right it is bad news and especially when such a large and high-profile operator goes under .... one that used to bear the Stanley Gibbons Auctions name.

I can only hope that the action taken was in time to leave vendors some payout.

We will see. I trusted the name and had been selling with them since 2003.

Meanmrmustid · Post by **Meanmrmustid** » 15 Mar 2016 21:04

Oh dear. Just bid in this auction on Sunday and won an item.

Lucky I have not paid for it yet as asked for item to be transported to their Melbourne office.

So does this mean that I will likely not receive item, or will it depend on liquidators?

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 15 Mar 2016 21:40

As one of the vendors I was told if you pay for it now after the liquidation has been struck you get the item and the vendor gets the money.

If you paid for it today you get the item and the vendor gets cents in the dollar, if anything is left, of the pool.

Apparently there are no secured creditors I was told and staff are covered by a govt scheme you have over there.

So what we vendors get comes down to realised assets minus liquidation fees and other costs, then I guess it is pro rata cents in dollar if anything left.

There can never be a happy outcome when a business is relying on proceeds of future sales to pay mounting backlogs of debt, especially when not just the commission but the actual proceeds due to the vendors are being used to pay off vendors in previous sales...and whatever else.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 15 Mar 2016 21:51

If anyone affected by this wants info, please email

There is a new contact regarding matters to do with this Velvet Collectibles company it is Brendan Copeland of William Buck at:

[email protected]

BigSaint · Post by **BigSaint** » 15 Mar 2016 23:58

Paul

I was at a meeting with one of the partners at William Buck tonight (as well as a high profile liquidator). I wish I had seen this development earlier.

I will ask the WB partner to see what he can find out for me.

From the argy bargy with harri earlier on in this thread, I just wonder whether there was any insolvent trading happening here.

Brad

jaywalker · Post by **jaywalker** » 16 Mar 2016 00:57

http://canberrastamps.org/dealers/ seems to suggest Velvet Collectables will be in attendance at the Canberra StampShow this weekend (Stand 4).

Nothing on the Velvet Collectables "News" page http://www.stamp-auction.com.au/news/, which would seem to be last updated 5 December 2015.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 16 Mar 2016 05:58

Point raised by Brad.
I was owed since the JUNE auction several sales accumulated...none paid. emails ignored. yet material was still accepted right up to this sale....trading while you can't pay seems to meet the ASIC criteria. I have provided liquidator with relevant data. I sent an email in early Dec...ignored...phoned the accounts manager....evasive.

BigSaint · Post by **BigSaint** » 16 Mar 2016 07:06

Insolvent trading is knowing that you can't pay your liabilities but continuing to incur debt knowing you can't pay those liabilities.

The fact that Peter has been owed since June 2015 is evidence of that. Dishonoured cheques is another. Unpaid PAYG tax (previously known as group tax), unpaid GST & unpaid superannuation are others.

When the liquidator produces his Statement of Affairs, it would seem likely that the ATO & Employee Super Funds will be high on the list.

The ATO may issue director penalty notices which may make the directors personally liable for the PAYG tax. After the company has been liquidated the liquidator will report to ASIC whether there has been insolvent trading.

If there has, it means the Directors can be held personally responsible for the debts of the company.

It is then up to ASIC to decide whether the directors should be be pursued for the debts of the company. Unfortunately this does not have a lot of success as the directors tend to be bankrupts.

So this is a long way down the track as these things take time & take, as Glen says, a lot of Liquidators fees.

Brad

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 16 Mar 2016 09:24

Safest to assume no payouts for creditor vendors and anything would be a bonus. I have supplied as said full evidence to the liquidator.

We lose money but the company owner presumably loses reputation.

That doesn't worry some....but sad for the staff...some knew things were not healthy but that's all anecdotal not in writing...whispers since January.