Velvet Collectable Auctions Sydney now in formal Liquidation

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 17 Mar 2016 05:51

https://insolvencynotices.asic.gov.au/browsesearch-notices/n ... 8cbf7ead42

https://insolvencynotices.asic.gov.au/browsesearch-notices/n ... a00ea21467

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 17 Mar 2016 08:45

Paul,

Could I ask you why you chose Velvet to auction your material. There are many auction houses that would have been better suited for your material,

David B.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 17 Mar 2016 08:50

I dealt with them as Stanley Gibbons and then re-named Mowbray since 2003 .... I expected more integrity ... tradition .... they had people I trusted like Ivan Knox ..... latterly I think the accounts manager was aware of something .....

I asked her outright in early December are you relying on future auctions to pay debt.Answer was no. Claimed they were trying to get some buyers to pay ... at that point I also emailed request for some payment. Ignored.

I gather through grapevine some staff were aware more recently things were shaky (the word used)...

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 17 Mar 2016 08:58

Since 2003 to 2010 I sold more than 40,000 $ with them no problem and resumed in 2013 as I needed money as my mother was ill (died) and I had been looking after her too while trying to keep my job...

I got paid for auctions up to May last year OK ... odd small delay but no reason for suspicion ... sales from 2013 to mid 2015 paid for also nudged 40K.

In the end lies, lies, lies. But some people shrug it off ... no shame these days. It's more like 'tough luck suckers '.

doc · Post by **doc** » 19 Mar 2016 14:20

A dealer here told me me Velvet Auctions Collectibles were about a MILLION dollars in the hole. Anyone know if that is true?

Outrageous if correct, or anything near that, as it seems this auction has been trading with little or no money on hand for ages?

And that is mostly vendor money it seems clear. Aren't there Auctioneer Trust Laws in NSW, where auction receipts need to be escrowed and paid to the vendors and no-one else?

No way am I going to auction anything, after reading all this. Cash sales to dealers at least sees you walk away with real money in hand, and if offer not high enough just say "no thanks".

BigSaint · Post by **BigSaint** » 19 Mar 2016 14:30

States have Laws on how Solicitors & Real Estate Agents deal with their customers' monies with the use of a Trust Account.

There are 1000s of Solicitors & Real Estate Agents in each State & it sounds a good idea to treat Stamp Auctioneers in the same way.

However there are a handful of Stamp Auctioneers in each State & it would be difficult to convince a Government to introduce Legislation to regulate such a small amount of people.

Brad

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 19 Mar 2016 14:48

jaywalker wrote:
http://canberrastamps.org/dealers/ seems to suggest Velvet Collectables will be in attendance at the Canberra StampShow this weekend (Stand 4).

Nothing on the Velvet Collectables "News" page http://www.stamp-auction.com.au/news/, which would seem to be last updated 5 December 2015.

jaywalker or others in Canberra - out of interest - did they make it to the show?

jaywalker · Post by **jaywalker** » 19 Mar 2016 15:44

No...there was a reshuffle, with Tony Shields taking the prime position that Velvet had had near the front entrance (and the Australia Post stand); and Stampboards taking the area that Tony vacated (close to power socket).

Darryl Fuller apparently had advice on Tuesday that Velvet were no longer coming (presumably when information was made public).

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 19 Mar 2016 16:18

Yes it is true - a million dollars or so debt.

I have the creditor report as I am one, but obviously cant post names and data as I must respect others' privacy.

Assets to debt ratio about 1:6 and those assets appear to include revenue due from sales in the March auction the day before the firm was wound up.

I have read ASIC data on what happens in the case of insolvent trading....and the penalties if it is found to have been deliberate ....

I was reassured by an irate Jurd by a call to him (he must have been at the windup meeting) that a payment would be made .... I also have a $6000 cheque that will bounce.

APTA needs to expel this dealer. He also was not straight with them when I lodged a complaint (my correspondence substantiates that).

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 19 Mar 2016 17:15

I was at the sale last Sunday and bought a few lots, which I paid for and took with me.

There was many lots that were sold to postal bidders and phone bidders. I presume that these have not yet been paid for and hopefully if the liquidators if they receive the funds then the material will be sent to them.

I do not understand exactly how liquidators work but know enough that even though payments have been made it does not guarantee that they will be also be included in the list of creditors.

It may also depend on when payment was made, before or after official liquidation was announced.

There was a large amount of Latvian related material in the last sale and the sale in December and I was the underbidder on most lots which were sold to a postal bidder. I presume the winning bids was from overseas but I may be wrong. The material was from the collection of the late Ivars Mastins.

Are there any members of Stampboards that will attend the meeting on Tuesday?

David B.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 19 Mar 2016 17:22

I was told by liquidator money that arrives after the winding up was done the vendor gets.

Money received before it goes into the pool.

I stand to be corrected....things are at an early stage.

Most of my sales on Sunday were Paraguay collections. Did well.

I have 20 unsold lots and was told these would be returned...I asked about posting them back as I am in NZ/ Paul

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 19 Mar 2016 17:31

Paul,

re.

I was told by liquidator money that arrives after the winding up was done the vendor gets.

Money received before it goes into the pool.

That seems wrong, I presume that any funds received after the winding up would also go into the pool.

The question is that if a bidder pays after the winding up, does he get the material posted to him.

David B.

Meanmrmustid · Post by **Meanmrmustid** » 19 Mar 2016 17:41

I was told that my item is currently intransit from the Sydney office to the Melbourne office, albeit for only a $340 item, I have yet to pay so will be able to make my payment when I pick the item up early next week.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 19 Mar 2016 18:19

David B's comment makes sense re payments as the contract to buy was made before the winding up....wonder if they will freeze sales on unsold lots, though. Where folk can pay 80pc to get a lot.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 19 Mar 2016 18:27

Paul,

re.

wonder if they will freeze sales on unsold lots, though. Where folk can pay 80pc to get a lot.

I think the liquidators would be happy to make the sale and the money, whether the vendor would get it is another matter. If I was a vendor I would be making enquiries about getting my unsolds back ASAP,

David B.

ebayer · Post by **ebayer** » 19 Mar 2016 18:37

David Benson wrote:
If I was a vendor I would be making enquiries about getting my unsolds back ASAP

If I was a vendor I'd demand all stamp lots back immediately. Whether they "sold" or not.

Clearly the company was owing a million dollars or so before the sale, and it should never have taken place, and all vendors in this sale look like they'll get zero, or close to zero, if folks have not been paid for sales made 9 months back.

On the face of it they accepted material under false pretences, knowing those vendors would never be paid. Isn't another name for that "fraud"?

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 19 Mar 2016 18:52

Liquidator says unsolds will be returned. Naturally he cannot comment on the outcome of the insolvency as he is independent but he can receive evidence of debt going way back, copies of emails and correspondence such as I have supplied.

I mentioned the very thing David Benson refers to ... and the ASIC criteria.

I am sure other creditors - several hundred, and I am amazed who is on the list - will be doing the same.

Holding an auction on Sunday causing vendors to lose about $170,000 in all, from just that one auction when a winding up meeting is set for Monday. A shocker.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 20 Mar 2016 10:51

I have just been in contact with a friend who purchased items in last Sunday's sale and contra'd his new purchases which he took with him against the amount owing to him from past sales.

Looks like the liquidator will have a lot of accounting work to do to sort this one out,

David B.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 20 Mar 2016 11:02

Interesting if liquidator says separate issue....you must pay. Your money owed is separate.

To exaggerate, let's say I bought 40k worth of stuff at the auction and said send it to me and charge against my debt, I doubt i would get the lots.

If the case does go into murky waters ...if ASIC takes it further....it could take ages to resolve with no money for anyone bar the liquidators.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 20 Mar 2016 11:20

Paul,

I have already informed my friend that he will be eventually asked to pay the amount for the purchases and then wait in line for a payment for the amount sold in previous sales. I don't know the amounts involved and if the purchases exceeds the amount owed. I do know he spent he lot of money at the sale and took the purchases with him.

David B.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 20 Mar 2016 12:17

IF I do get my 19 unsold lots back they include 11 large different collections of Paraguay and a few interesting covers....Inini-St Helena line cover, Americas Cup yacht card, El Salvador-Paraguay flight cover, Jean Batten autograph, some German.

I guess I get charged the return costs from Australia...it is early days and I do not know...I am waiting to hear this coming week.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 20 Mar 2016 12:21

Paul,

Don't worry about the return charges, I am sure that when and if you allowed to receive the returns it can be arranged to pick up the material by one of the Sydney Stampboard members and arrangements can be made to get the material to NZ by hand.

On another matter,

Do you know the amount owed for rent for their offices. I presume that the liquidators would want to vacate the offices ASAP as the costs will keep on accruing, but where would they store the material, lots unsold, lots unpaids, lots paid for but not yet posted, lots not described, etc., etc.,

When Philas Auctions first started in 1978 we were lucky that the liquidator of Sydney Stamp Auctions (Harry Jackson) organised that all the material was handed to Philas to be sold.

We had no idea who the items belonged to and after the catalogue was produced there were a few people who complained that their unsolds were included. As Harry had not left much paperwork apart from scribbled notes we could not verify anything.

David B.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 20 Mar 2016 12:26

Hi David, I don't know the rental ....that may be in arr ears...

I would actually be happy to do a deal with someone to buy all or most of the lots over there, save sending them back. An all in offer except for one lot of West German cto Id like back.....I think a dealer or small trader could make a good profit especiallly from the Paraguay.....there are many many hundreds of souvenir sheets of all themes and thousands of stamps in sets...not just the cheap stuff. And they ARE all fine condition, no rusty, short perfed, thinned rubbish.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 20 Mar 2016 12:36

Paul,

I doubt a buyer for the balance could be found. You could try Philas and see how they go but I thought that some of your lots were overpriced and they would have to be discounted otherwise they would not sell there also.

Philas could arrange to pick them up and they are 100% financially secure as they own their own property and have always paid on time,

David B.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 20 Mar 2016 12:42

Thanks for the tip of Philas, I will see when I get the lots....it looks a good bet. The Paraguay I thought were OK as a huge mark down even on Scott, The Inini, the yacht card and a couple of others had ambitious estimates. Most Paraguay seemed to sell.

Raz · Post by **Raz** » 20 Mar 2016 12:49

I too am owed a small amount for material that I gave to Danny at the Sydney Stampshow at Hurstville.

There were 3 lots and two sold. I received the money for the first lot sold, some Chinese stamps selling for about $120. The next lot sold for $380 last July. Many phone calls later the lady in Melb assured me it was her fault. I talked to Danny about two weeks ago and was assured the cheque would be in the mail.

It wasn't.

The sorry part is they weren't my stamps and the old gent who owns them trusted me and I trusted Danny as I was introduced to him at Hurstville by the people organising the show at Hurstville as I lent them a book on Anzac to display. I was told it was worth $500. I'll think about selling it to pay my old mate as I don't think he would want to know about all this.

From now on I'll drive to Castlecrag with anything I want to sell. Two sticky grains of rice would be an improvement on my current state. The weird thing is the lot that hasn't sold was the one I thought would go first as it had the whole Japanese era 1910-1925, including the key blue ten sen, albeit mint hinged.

Apparently most Japan collectors like Mint Unhinged. The stamp is catalogued at about $2,000. I have to break the news to old Reg I suppose that I'll pay him when my Mum's estate is settled.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 20 Mar 2016 12:50

The Inini is virtually unsellable, If it was mine, I would list it on Ebay and hope for the best.

Paraguay is a terrible seller, catalogue value doesn't come into play for bulk lots, only singles or sets and then at a fraction of Scott's.

David B.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 20 Mar 2016 12:58

Raz,

I remember you as I was the person who organised that you display the interesting book.

I am sorry about your problems and if it hurt you financially,

I think you are mistaken about being introduced to Danny by the people who organised the show. There were two groups involved in the organistion, The Philatelic Exhibition Committee which is part of Philas who organised the exhibits and the ANDA who organised the dealers.

The ANDA was outside the entrance with Gabrielle in control of the stand and The Exhibition Committee were inside on the left with Ed Wolff in Charge.

I am 101% positive that the Exhibition Committee would have recommended Philas where you items would have sold and paid for,

David B.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 20 Mar 2016 12:59

Hi Raz, Please email all details to the liquidator...as we know this is important. Could not even pay a small amount that far back....

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 20 Mar 2016 13:09

David Benson wrote:
I think you are mistaken about being introduced to Danny by the people who organised the show. There were two groups involved in the organistion, The Philatelic Exhibition Committee which is part of Philas who organised the exhibits and the ANDA who organised the dealers.

David your memory is going.

ANDA had nothing to do with Hurstville.

APTA did, and Danny was the King Pin there for APTA as I recall.

Raz · Post by **Raz** » 20 Mar 2016 13:16

David, It was a lady from the APTA that led me to Danny. It wasn't Gabrielle and I in no way blame them for introducing me to Danny. They all acted in good faith and were only doing what they thought was proper at the time. The organising committee were very good to me including yourself.

I only commented as the question was put in a previous post as to why Velvet were assigned material. That is why for me. It was easier as I live closer to Hurstville than the city and I was going there anyway.

Let's not let Velvet's shortfalls rub off on anyone else. I just wanted to state the facts in a public forum so my old mate Reg knows it's kosher when I break the bad news.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 20 Mar 2016 13:23

Glen, my fault as usual, I always get mixed up between ANDA and APTA,

on another matter, I presume the liquidators will be wanting to rent a Storage Unit ASAP otherwise extra office rental costs. However Storage Units aren't cheap over a long term and suitability for Philatelic material is a problem,

David B.

numisphil · Post by **numisphil** » 20 Mar 2016 15:36

on another matter, I presume the liquidators will be wanting to rent a Storage Unit ASAP otherwise extra office rental costs.

David, you are assuming that Velvet don't have a Lease Agreement which means they will continue to pay rent until someone else takes over their current Lease. If they have a Lease Agreement, they can still walk away from the premises, but will still be liable for the rent! They may have no choice but to stay on and hope someone else takes over the Lease of their current offices.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 20 Mar 2016 15:53

I don't know if they have a lease and it will most probably be discussed at the Liquidators meeting.

If rental monies are in arrears then either the liquidator has to guarantee the payment or they will be evicted.

David B.

fromdownunder · Post by **fromdownunder** » 20 Mar 2016 16:03

numisphil wrote:David, you are assuming that Velvet don't have a Lease Agreement which means they will continue to pay rent until someone else takes over their current Lease.

We don't even know if they are paying rent. Maybe they just owe unpaid back rent.

If they have a Lease Agreement, they can still walk away from the premises, but will still be liable for the rent! They may have no choice but to stay on and hope someone else takes over the Lease of their current offices.

And if they have no cash flow, and no cash, they can be as liable for the rent as you like, or the total that the lessor is comfortable with. But that does not actually pay the rent. Nor does it stop unsold material being chucked onto the street because of unpaid rent when the owner finally decides that enough is enough, and empties their stored material into a Dumpster.

Norm

Tassie_Stamps · Post by **Tassie_Stamps** » 20 Mar 2016 16:49

Well he is still an APTA member, great to see their fast action on this to stop more people unknowingly consigning items to him, or paying for lots won that they will not necessarily receive......

To anyone who is owed money, I strongly suggest emailing APTA and hopefully they will action something.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 20 Mar 2016 17:06

I lodged a complaint with APTA Feb 9 after phoning Jurd who wanted to pay by small sums. APTA required him to give me dates and a time-frame.

He did, but the first cheque will bounce - I lodged it on March 8 but has not cleared.

APTA is supposedly going to discipline him for breaching the agreement.

He should be expelled from APTA. He has broken their code of ethics and what has happened may have more serious consequences for reasons well stated on here.

APTA in arranging the deal sent me a statement of Jurd's intent to pay etc etc, and that and many other emails are with the liquidator.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 20 Mar 2016 17:14

Regarding unsold lots I explained to the liquidator I was in NZ and could not pick up lots.

He asked me to give him the numbers from the March auction which I have done. He said vendors with unsold lots would be asked at some point to collect them.

He is aware I can't so
maybe the liquidators will remove them and hold/return them for me.

Presumably the owner of Velvet will make a statement to creditors about this mess....

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 20 Mar 2016 17:20

Paul,

inform the liquidator that you will give permission for someone pick up the lots for you.

You can give my name if you wish,

David Benson

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 20 Mar 2016 17:29

Thanks David, I will find out what they plan to do...I don't know if any staff are working at the office of Velvet this week tidying up or doing work at the direction of the liquidators or if the office is locked with a notice on the door.

Their websites and online info and sites are still as normal....you know 'the name to trust ' and citing SG origins etc....I have emailed SG senior dealer I know about that as it tarnishes by association.

chrisb · Post by **chrisb** » 20 Mar 2016 17:33

In many parts of the world sellers would not find themselves falling short if an auction house was liquidated.

Unless of course the said company was operating outside regulations and not keeping sellers funds in a trust account.

Surely there are trust account regulations in Australia. If not no auction house in Australia is safe to deal with.

Retsam1 · Post by **Retsam1** » 21 Mar 2016 18:04

Just confirmed with the liquidators that the sold lots are basically toast and gone and they are now going through the inventory to account for the unsold lots.

They will then be in contact with vendors by Wednesday in order for them to pickup or assign them to another auction house.

This was basically my first attempt to sell some stamps using an auction house and I lost 75% of my lots down the drain.

I know other vendors have lost a lot more and this is a terrible state of affairs.

Last time I will ever use an auction house to sell anything - I rather just eBay it or give it away rather than going through this awful situation again.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 21 Mar 2016 18:53

I spoke with liquidator today and confim above. There is a lot that cannot be said on here but only verbally as this is likely heading for more than can be said on here. We need to be careful we do not say anything that could undermine that.

Retsam1 · Post by **Retsam1** » 21 Mar 2016 19:02

Hi Paul any chance of contacting you directly?
Cheers

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 21 Mar 2016 19:05

Hi Retsam I have emailed you.....I invite anyone to email me via the email icon at the foot. Or they can phone me in NZ landline 64-6-7580612.

David Benson · Post by **David Benson** » 21 Mar 2016 19:16

Paul,

a technical question,

Would material that is still on hand that has been sold but not yet paid be classified as sold or unsold. I doubt that Postal Bidders from the last sale would have paid for their lots and even if they had will the material be despatched,

David B.

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 21 Mar 2016 19:18

A winning bid is a contract to buy. I imagine they would be billed and required to pay and get the lot.

Post by **GlenStephens** » 21 Mar 2016 19:45

Retsam1 wrote:
This was basically my first attempt to sell some stamps using an auction house, and I lost 75% of my lots down the drain.

I know other vendors have lost a lot more and this is a terrible state of affairs.

Last time I will ever use an auction house to sell anything

Sad to hear this happened on your first outing. A real shame. Especially seeing there are many options when selling.

I get mailed 100s of sendings a year for this exact reason. Fair, same day cash payment offer for THE LOT up to $1 million suits most folks. If the offer is not suitable, you can say "no thanks" and the stamps are also returned same day.

No unsold lots hassles, no seller fees, no GST deducted on top of seller fees, no buyers fees seeing 20%-25% more of your stamp values vanish, no lot fees, no 6 month delay, no raised blood pressure, and no chance the liquidators will ever descend on me for owing a million bucks to trusting collectors.

http://www.glenstephens.com/buying.html

Retsam1 · Post by **Retsam1** » 21 Mar 2016 20:13

Yes one can always say that in hindsight. No need to rub it in.

It could happen to anyone and it may just be the tip of the iceberg of the general state of the hobby/industry. Who knows which auction house or business is next?

Regarding the earlier question, all lots sold will need to be paid for and that money will end up with the liquidators. If they do not get paid, then legal proceedings will begin initiated by the liquidators.

I have been thinking if this was a real estate agent and you sign up with them to sell your property and it sold before they went into liquidation, does that mean your money is lost also???

Paul Peters · Post by **Paul Peters** » 21 Mar 2016 20:25

Apparently stamp auctioneers in Oz and probably NZ are not governed by escrow account laws. I stand to be corrected.