Australian Commonwealth Official CTO stamps discussion

The Pom · Post by **The Pom** » 16 Jul 2022 03:18

Also a 5/- First wmk with Brisbane CTO cancel.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354148896462

capetriangle · Post by **capetriangle** » 16 Jul 2022 03:24

Scissor-trimmed perfs. at left.

Kindest regards

Richard

The Pom · Post by **The Pom** » 16 Jul 2022 04:16

capetriangle wrote: ↑16 Jul 2022 03:24 Scissor-trimmed perfs. at left.

Kindest regards

Richard

As is stated in the item description:

With scissor clipped perforation down left which might have been partly reperforated, otherwise is fine used.

capetriangle · Post by **capetriangle** » 16 Jul 2022 06:44

Just saw this closed a couple or so minutes ago. It went from £93.50 to £389.88 in the last two seconds.

I was astonished at the price.

Kindest regards

Richard

The Pom · Post by **The Pom** » 16 Jul 2022 06:50

CV for the 5/- with Brisbane CTO is $A1250, so that's a sale price of about 55% of CV.

The marginal singles went for £28 & £50.

capetriangle · Post by **capetriangle** » 16 Jul 2022 07:05

I am surprised it even catalogues that highly.

I admit I am hopelessly out of date with Commonwealth of Australia prices which together with my prejudice against the C.T.O. examples and my dislike of the perfs. at left the price surprised me.

Kindest regards

Richard

The Pom · Post by **The Pom** » 16 Jul 2022 07:13

Most CTO were done in Melbourne, the Brisbane examples are extremely scarce.

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 16 Jul 2022 15:45

capetriangle wrote: ↑16 Jul 2022 06:44
I was astonished at the price.

Actually it was - rather low at ¬$A700. In a real auction here, it would have cost a lot more. The stamp was NOT reperforated, as seller oddly alluded to, which probably impacted some bids.

As a real world comparison, Arthur Gray's 5/- BRISBANE, also with scissor cut perfs at left, was invoiced for $A1,450 in 2016 -

https://www.millenniumauctions.com.au/search.php3?showcatego ... auction=60

Many other BRISBANE CTO exist with the scissor cut perfs, as these were often used for VIP Presentation sets -

: Arthur Gray 9d BRISBANE CTO cancel also with scissor cut perfs 2 sides. Invoiced for $845

The ''Brisbane'' cancels all had less than a sheet issued. We know some values were down to a dozen or so copies issued. CURRENT ACSC prices are now more in line with the market than they once were, although most are still a little light. I just listed up a humble 9d Violet below this week for $A850, with an ACSC Plate variety 24(2)r, so will be UNIQUE (Arthur Gray's 9d was no variety was invoiced for $A845) Mine also has the identifiable and essential key '3.15pm' date code section of this special cancel.

: Australia 1913 9d Roo BRISBANE CTO cancel, being UNIQUE with ACC plate variety 24(2)r.

Note the bullish $A2,675 price this truly ugly BRISBANE QUEENSLAND low value cto got - from

https://glenstephens.com/sndecember19.html

The demand is unabated, and the recent auction results are gobsmacking really. The very ugly, and humble 1913 ½d green Roo seen nearby, ACSC #1wd, was invoiced way above estimate at $2,675 in the Phoenix Melbourne, November 15, 2019 Auction.

Sadly the ACSC allowed an ebay seller to price these things, and realisations TEN times full ACSC are routine for these cancels. An equally humble 2d Grey, also with no date on the cds, was invoiced for $A2,900 in the same November 15, 2019 Phoenix sale.

These Brisbane CTO cancels are all scarce, as only a sheet or so of each were done, and not all of those were distributed. All bear a quarter of the heavyish looking cds cancel of “BRISBANE - 12 NO: 13 - QUEENSLAND”.

I have the 5/- 1913 with the same cancel in stock, (a scarce stamp with ANY cancel) indeed mine shows the date, for a THIRD what the ½d above just sold for! A 1913 £1 with non-dated BRISBANE part cancel was invoiced for $3,250 at the same Phoenix auction.

It is a challenging field, and supply is low, and demand is high. There are MANY different cancel types. The ACSC “Kangaroos” catalogue is a handy guide, despite the Froot Loop prices given to all these BRISBANE cancels, well after strong Auction results had clearly indicated their scarcity, and the red-hot real world prices.

capetriangle · Post by **capetriangle** » 17 Jul 2022 04:24

The Pom, Global Administrator

Thanks for the information, I did not realize that scissor-trimmed perfs. were to be expected on these - like some of the U.S. Special Printings, nor their relative scarcity when compared to the Melbourne ones.

It was the jump from £93.50 to £389.88 in the last two seconds which surprised me.

Kindest regards

RIchard

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 17 Jul 2022 04:29

capetriangle wrote: ↑17 Jul 2022 04:24 The Pom, Global Administrator

Thanks for the information, I did not realize that scissor-trimmed perfs. were to be expected on these - like some of the U.S. Special Printings, nor their relative scarcity when compared to the Melbourne ones.

It was the jump from £93.50 to £389.88 in the last two seconds which surprised me.

Kindest regards

RIchard

Richard.. not 'expected' but prevalent on many genuine examples.

No-one sane of course bids on anything of real value on eBay other than by a snipe program in last 2 or 3 seconds.

Even so, it was very cheap, way under what a real auction here would have seen.

Glen

capetriangle · Post by **capetriangle** » 17 Jul 2022 04:40

Global Administrator wrote: ↑17 Jul 2022 04:29
Richard.. not 'expected' but prevalent on many genuine examples.

No-one sane of course bids on anything of real value on eBay other than by a snipe program in last 2 or 3 seconds.

Even so, it was very cheap, way under what a real auction here would have seen.

Glen

Not sure what the difference between prevalent and expected is.

I have never used a sniping program - I do not have the computer skills - however I now buy virtually nothing from ebay. I happily concede insanity.

Kindest regards

Richard

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 17 Jul 2022 05:31

You can happily type 12,000 messages here and press SUBMIT, but can't type a $ bid figure into a free snipe program and hit SUBMIT. Gotcha.

They'll let you vote for Trump yet.

Glen

capetriangle · Post by **capetriangle** » 18 Jul 2022 00:18

Global Administrator wrote: ↑17 Jul 2022 05:31 You can happily type 12,000 messages here and press SUBMIT, but can't type a $ bid figure into a free snipe program and hit SUBMIT. Gotcha. Yes, precisely. You may recall that you once criticized me for not being able to find the print button on my computer, I replied saying that it was a perfectly legitimate criticism.

They'll let you vote for Trump yet. But I will not, I have never voted for the specific type of orifice, so please no hitting below the belt.

Glen

My comments in red.

Kindest regards

Richard

satsuma · Post by **satsuma** » 18 Jul 2022 11:51

capetriangle wrote: ↑17 Jul 2022 04:40
Not sure what the difference between prevalent and expected is.

Prevalent can be thought of as "not unexpected".

So, what's the difference between expected and not unexpected?

Think about a coin toss. You can't expect a head to be face up, but it's not unexpected if it is.

Mark Houston · Post by **Mark Houston** » 29 Jul 2022 13:44

These scarce 1st watermark kangaroos with Brisbane cto cancels pictured, are from blocks of eight retained by the GPO in Brisbane.

The balance of the sheets were returned to the GPO in Melbourne, and then to the archives.

There are only two of the 1d and 2½d known.

They were purchased in pairs, the other two are in the Arthur Gray collection.

Three of the 5d are known.

As noted in previous posts they have trimmed perforations.

A complete collection of Brisbane CTO kangaroos, amongst other scarce CTO's blocks are coming up at a major auction house next month.

A rare opportunity to purchase some Hen's teeth!

Mark Houston · Post by **Mark Houston** » 31 Jul 2022 20:54

Some more scarce blocks coming up at Phoenix auctions mid August.

These are part of my CTO collection which took over twenty years to accumulate, which include a complete collection of Kangaroo Brisbane cancels, some in blocks of four.

gdmcon · Post by **gdmcon** » 01 Aug 2022 12:42

Nice to see items posted, I would like to see more.

gregbear61 · Post by **gregbear61** » 01 Aug 2022 18:02

They can be seen here on the Phoenix auction webpage in the 1st Watermark 'roos section.

Some nice philatelic eye candy there:

http://www.phoenixauctions.com.au/cgi-bin/wsPhoenix.sh/viewl ... auction=94

Phoenix Auctions · Post by **Phoenix Auctions** » 12 Aug 2022 12:13

: 2/- Brown Kangaroo Block of 4 with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO cancel.

: 6d Blue Kangaroo Block of 4 with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO cancel.

: 4d Orange Kangaroo Block of 4 with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO cancel.

: 3d Olive Die I Kangaroo Block of 4 with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO cancel.

: 2d Grey Kangaroo Block of 4 with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO cancel.

Some examples of Mark Houston’s Kangaroos in Blocks of 4 with ‘QUEENSLAND’ CTO cancels.

Phoenix Auctions · Post by **Phoenix Auctions** » 12 Aug 2022 12:28

: £2Black & Rose pair with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO

: £1 Brown & Blue with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO

: 10/- Grey & Pink with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO

: 5/- Grey & Chrome with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO

: 2/- Brown with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO

: 1/- Green pair with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO

: 9d Deep Violet with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO

: 5d Chestnut with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO

: 2½d Indigo with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO

: 1d Deep Red with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO

: ½d Green with 'QUEENSLAND' CTO cancel.

Other examples of the 'QUEENSLAND' CTO cancels. All forming part of Phoenix Auctions, Auction No.94, 18th August 2022.

The Pom · Post by **The Pom** » 12 Aug 2022 22:15

Nice stamps, but you need to sort out your scanner - the yellowish-green line is rather distracting!

The Pom · Post by **The Pom** » 17 Aug 2022 22:22

starling wrote: ↑08 Aug 2014 19:02
I was a bit confused by this Arms set of 4. They are all CTO Melbourne 24 JE (1960?) and have full, unhinged gum.

However, this scan from Glen from earlier on this page might help explain things?

Though would someone have paid £3/15s for a used Arms set? Or was this from a Presentation Folder?

Thanks.

Scott

There was some discussion of these on P69 of this thread, about halfway down the page.

Has there been any further thought on frequency/value of these?

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 18 Aug 2022 00:02

A ton of money back then, but I've handled CTO BLOCKS in the past .. some folks had money to burn!

The Pom · Post by **The Pom** » 18 Aug 2022 00:31

This lot went for US$12.65 on ebay, which seems cheap.

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 18 Aug 2022 19:49

Some brilliant results today Mark.

This was invoiced for about $A7500 .. amazing .... with no cancel, just a couple of bucks!

Rod Perry will be turning in his grave.

And this one was invoiced for over double estimate at about $A3,100 -

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 18 Aug 2022 22:16

This 'QUEENSLAND' CTO one was also very strong .. being invoiced way above estimate at over $3,200.

The Dopey Bozic ACSC value is $400. Even dopier ... the 1d above is in ASC at $500 it was invoiced for $7500 - FIFTEEN times full ACSC.

Monogram · Post by **Monogram** » 20 Aug 2022 00:00

Global Administrator wrote: ↑18 Aug 2022 19:49
Some brilliant results today

And this one was invoiced for over double estimate at about $A3,100 -

My purchase of the right hand stamp a while back off Mark seems a good acquisition. Also bought some nice CTO's Thursday for my collection

Lakatoi 4 · Post by **Lakatoi 4** » 20 Aug 2022 07:50

A pity the pair was split though. So much better seeing a joined pair and of course a block of four is the ultimate with these.

Unusual for the CDS to be inverted isn’t it

PhilipAdams · Post by **PhilipAdams** » 20 Aug 2022 10:30

A question to the experts, with apology if it has been raised before.

The two stamps below were purchased at auction over ten years ago.

The auction description for the first was

CTO with MELBOURNE cds with blank base, DE 3 13 (date not visible, but Type 1 cds with round-top '3').

The auction description for the second was

CTO with MELBOURNE cds with blank base, DE3 13 (data not visible, but Type 2 with flat-top '3').

My question: how do you distinguish a round-top from a flat-top without seeing the date?

Thanks for your help.

==========================
.

.

.
Philip

Big Tones · Post by **Big Tones** » 20 Aug 2022 10:55

PhilipAdams wrote: ↑20 Aug 2022 10:30 A question to the experts, with apology if it has been raised before.

The two stamps below were purchased at auction over ten years ago.

The auction description for the first was

CTO with MELBOURNE cds with blank base, DE 3 13 (date not visible, but Type 1 cds with round-top '3').

The auction description for the second was

CTO with MELBOURNE cds with blank base, DE3 13 (data not visible, but Type 2 with flat-top '3').

My question: how do you distinguish a round-top from a flat-top without seeing the date?

Thanks for your help.

Philip,

I am no expert. However, it seems pretty clear that the D in Dec is visible in each case. One has a rounded top and the other a flat top.

Regards,

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 20 Aug 2022 11:23

PhilipAdams wrote: ↑20 Aug 2022 10:30
My question: how do you distinguish a round-top from a flat-top without seeing the date?

The 2 MELBOURNE cancels are WILDLY different even in singles. One has much fatter, thicker, letters, of a totally different font, and those letters are very close to the fatter outer rim than the usual CTO cds.

Apart from that, they are identical.

Mark's good examples were shown earlier on this page -

Mark Houston wrote: ↑31 Jul 2022 20:54

Mark Houston · Post by **Mark Houston** » 21 Aug 2022 20:09

Thank you Glen and the Stamp Boards Forum for the opportunity to display the stamps I had for sale.

Most of them sold for strong prices and it is a testament to this site that collector's have gained the knowledge to appreciate the scarcity of some CTO issues.

I know that at least one stamp board member was a successful bidder and well done to you.

I have included a couple of pictures of NSW CTO cancels relating to an earlier post that support the idea that there are several sets about.

Post by **admin** » 21 Aug 2022 21:02

Mark Houston wrote: ↑21 Aug 2022 20:09
Thank you Glen and the StampBoards Forum for the opportunity to display the stamps I had for sale.

Most of them sold for strong prices, and it is a testament to this site that collector's have gained the knowledge to appreciate the scarcity of some CTO issues.

I know that at least one stampboards member was a successful bidder and well done to you.

Well done for assembling these over the decades Mark, when these were unappreciated mostly. You and Arthur Gray and a few others, were the only ones out there, with a Crystal Ball.

PLEASE folks, email the invoice results (add 20% onto hammer price) to Geoff Kellow for his next ACSC updates. The 1d red 'Brisbane' was invoiced for FIFTEEN TIMES the insane current ACSC price, at $7,500. He does not follow auctions too closely, and these real world auction updates then bypass Bozic's dreamy guess levels.

Rod Perry greatly disliked all CTO Roos in ANY form, for some strange reason, and posted that often here, and in the long period when he priced things in ACSC, they stayed crazy low, allowing those with astute eyes to profit.

Good to see you got good prices Mark. Had you offered these 10 years back, it MIGHT have been 10% of this week's levels.

Indeed the 1d Block would never have got even $750 at auction then, is my guess.

Could not resist securing this below - someone forgot to mention the 2 x Die 2s, AND the constant 'Arnhem land' variety!

Anyone have any idea HOW these strips and blocks ever originated? Have never seen an explanation. Decades before the Miller Brothers.

Glen

Lakatoi 4 · Post by **Lakatoi 4** » 22 Aug 2022 08:47

admin wrote: ↑21 Aug 2022 21:02 Rod Perry greatly disliked all CTO Roos in ANY form, for some strange reason, and posted that often here……

A number of years ago I had a long conversation with him over lunch in Port Douglas. Over a few (too many) wines we discussed that very thing. He disliked the “manufactured” aspect of CTO’s as much as he disliked fly speck plate flaws, printing errors, missing colours, etc.

He told me that to him, stamps on cover doing what they were designed to do was his only real philatelic interest but that he understood why collectors were interested in other things.

On a number of occasions I tried to talk him into writing his autobiography, particularly the philatelic aspects of it, but unfortunately this wasn’t to be.

Post by **admin** » 22 Aug 2022 13:23

Rod had plenty of his views right here on this board.

He always hated all INVERTED WATERMARKS too. On any stamps. And he typed so regularly here.

When one sold for $20,000 he declared that totally insane. When it next sold for $40,000 he posted the same thing.

Rod had a VERY HEAVY influence into the pricing in all versions of the ACSC. Until VERY recent years.

What he liked - stamps on cover or parcel pieces got heavy pricing treatment, and to that end, our listings are probably the world's best and most detailed, and the hobby owes him great thanks.

What he did not like - official CTO's etc, are now just catching up to reality, as we see above.

Glen

Monogram · Post by **Monogram** » 05 Sep 2022 19:25

What wonderful children I have.

Fathers day present from my son Troy major stamp collector and my daughter Paige also stamp collector

6d Engraved Brisbane CTO MH full gum. 2nd one. Only one other one known

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 05 Sep 2022 19:30

Those clever kids will hopefully, be able to help you load attachments inline correctly as a late Father' Day gift. (Despite you editing SIXTEEN times!)

I assume the excitement, for those lacking clairvoyancy skills, is the 6d Kooka had a BRISBANE CTO cancel?

It clearly does not have the same 3.15pm hour slug as all the catalogued Roos with that cds.

Glen

Monogram · Post by **Monogram** » 05 Sep 2022 19:57

Global Administrator wrote: ↑05 Sep 2022 19:30 Those clever kids will hopefully, be able to help you load attachments inline correctly as a late Father' Day gift. (Despite you editing SIXTEEN times!)

I assume the excitement, for those lacking clairvoyancy skills, is the 6d Kooka had a BRISBANE CTO cancel?

It clearly does not have the same 3.15pm hour slug as all the catalogued Roos with that cds.

Glen

Honestly Glen I appreciate everything my children do and don't appreciate your sarcasm. We research prior to listing. Here's Mark Houston's copy

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 05 Sep 2022 20:00

It is not sarcasm .. it is bog basic common sense - no-one here can read minds about why you post something, and EVERYONE except you seem to be savvy enough to add attachments inline - despite the SIXTEEN (16) edits to your post above!

Despite being asked to, you STILL bumble on - and still not bothering to do so, in the very next post - so some reading just for you -

https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=90770

Glen

PhilipAdams · Post by **PhilipAdams** » 05 Sep 2022 20:08

Monogram wrote: ↑05 Sep 2022 19:25 What wonderful children I have. Fathers day present from my son Troy major stamp collector and my daughter Paige also stamp collector

6d Engraved Brisbane CTO MH full gum. 2nd one. Only one other one known

Always great to hear of younger (= anyone under the age of 60!) taking an interest in stamp collecting.

Enjoy the stamp and enjoy your common family bond.

Philip

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 05 Sep 2022 20:16

The purpose and origin 'Brisbane' CTO's on stamps other than the catalogued 1913 Roos seems rather murky.

There certainly are some full gum blocks about of the KGV WWI era material, and I've sold a few to members here.

The ''OS'' overprint KGVs are an interesting case.

Many of them are about in panes and large blocks, and often with cancels like ADELAIDE and BRISBANE and SYDNEY. Melbourne less so, oddly.

½d Orange KGV I often see in full panes and sheets CTO, and the 3d also especially often. the OVERPRINT 6d OS Roo as well.

No idea of the original source. But in The Great Depression seems odd anyone was buying panes of USED stamps!

This sheet I sold here for a few $$s a stamp.

Australia OS ½d Orange KGV “BRISBANE” CTO cancel sheet, full gum MUH: One of the super rare pieces of this reign. Fresh, well centred full gum flat MUH. Have NEVER owned one of these cancels on this value until this week, in decades of dealing – much less a SHEET! (Well a full sheet 120 less a Block 4, that the seller retained.)

Sheet has the constant plate flaws on this issue, and overprint errors like “Hollow S”. Also has the full John Ash Imprint - high cat even with the normal CTO cancel. Fresh full gum MUH, 116 stamps, at a few bucks apiece!

The Pom · Post by **The Pom** » 18 Sep 2022 22:26

This Brisbane CTO sold for US$79 on ebay this morning.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Australia-1913-1-Roo-used-with-inverted-watermark-/125502829171

The seller simply described it as "Australia 1913 1/- Roo used with inverted watermark".

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 18 Sep 2022 22:40

'Knowledge Is Power' as I type incessantly.

If these dopes bought an ACSC they'd be $100s ahead of that cost.

Monogram · Post by **Monogram** » 22 Sep 2022 15:34

First Watermark Melbourne CTO 4d Orange (Part Monogram)

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 22 Sep 2022 15:55

Monogram HOW many times do you need to be asked to add attachments inline by clicking the simple 'PLACE INLINE' button - it IS there for excellent reason - to USE!

All members can edit posts for an hour.

Monogram · Post by **Monogram** » 22 Sep 2022 22:45

Global Administrator wrote: ↑22 Sep 2022 15:55 Monogram HOW many times do you need to be asked to add attachment inline by clicking the simple 'PLACE INLINE' button - it IS there for excellent reason - to USE!

All members can edit posts for an hour.

Looks like at least one more time Ha Ha Ha

Browny · Post by **Browny** » 25 Sep 2022 13:09

Hi All,
Here's a nice find in a very old Lincoln world album purchased at auction a while ago.
For some reason, all the Australian States material was under Australia, whilst the actual Australia stamps was under Salvador!
For this reason, I think everybody missed it when viewing.

Along with a few CTO roos and dozens of mint stamps on a page, was another page of nice CTO KGV:

Sometimes we have to be lucky!

Cheers.
Browny

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 25 Sep 2022 15:44

Very nice.

Many of these WWI era albums had only small A5 type pages that took only 30 or so stamps, so if the page for 'Australia' was full they added them only a blank page later on!

I loaded up 5 old albums here today for $70 that some non collector goose had REMOVED all the stamps from and tossed loose into soap boxes etc! No time to peer thru it all.

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=100457

Monogram · Post by **Monogram** » 08 Oct 2022 16:50

I give up

Global Admin · Post by **Global Admin** » 08 Oct 2022 17:11

Monogram, not sure if this constant foolishness is just stupidity, or someone deliberately taking the pith - based on your silly post above? Whatever your game, it is wasting Admin time and derailing this thread - AGAIN.

Global Administrator wrote: ↑22 Sep 2022 15:55
Do you EVER use the 'PREVIEW' Button? If you ever bothered to do that, the word ATTACHMENTS above image should NOT be there - GOT IT???????

Monogram HOW many times do you need to be asked to add attachments inline by clicking the simple 'PLACE INLINE' button - it IS there for excellent reason - to USE!

All members can edit posts for an hour.